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Notice how rap has taken over pretty much every commercial?
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Billy Gnosis



Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 1281
Location: Southern Oregon
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Selling out means different things to different people. There are those who think just by signing to a recognizable label is selling out. Those who think once your albums are carried by certain chains you've sold out. Those who think once your ticket prices have reached a certain point you've sold out. Those who think once you've licensed a song to a major brand and receive royalties you've sold out. And then there's the stupid fuckers who think that just because you're making 'some' money and eating every day you've sold out.

Bro Ali has sold out.

I remember a while ago Levi's approached Bad Religion about using 21st Century Digital Boy for one of their commercials, BR said no. In my mind, that's keeping your integrity and not selling out.
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:19 pm
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mortalthoughts
LAME KID


Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 11616
Location: MI
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why does it matter to you guys so much if someone 'sells out'?

the 'burden' of him 'selling out' is on him
hes the one that has to l ive day to day knowing he 'sold out'
and im sure hes fine with it or he wouldnt have done it
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:30 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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August Spies wrote:
well it doesnt' seem to me that you are really interested in rationally discussing this


Er, what gave you that impression? I'm not fucking around, I care about talking to people about things.


Quote:

we are walking a fine line here. I think it is readily apparnent that whoring yourself out to corporations will ultimately degrad your art. You are forced to make sacrifices, etc...


This seems to be stuff that's at once perhaps obviously true and questionable. I think a lot of terms are too vague here... what constitutes "whoring", what constitutes artistic degradation, and the real question I think is what does "ultimately" come at the end of? An inevitable process? Talk to me about this.


Quote:

However, we do live in this capitalist culture and it is necessary to make many sacrifices to survive. However your attitude, if taken to the logical extreme, would say it is completely fine to totally whore yourself out to corporations... and of course maybe you do think it is fine.


Whether I do or not will depend on what constitutes "whoring". I can say though that the life cycle mandates a certain give-and-take... to procure, one must produce in some abstracted sense. You have to do something to live, we agree on that - so when is it doing a job and when is it turning a trick?


Quote:

I personally disagree and think I am pefectly qualified to say that a band like Fugazi who has real meaning beyond thier music and real principles (i.e. they dont' sell merchandise other than records, they don't play shows that cost more than 7 dollars, they remain on an independent record label) makes them superior artists on a certain level to someone like Puff Daddy.


I may well agree that they are artistically superior to Puffy (although I'm not terribly familiar with their work... or all of his for that matter), but I don't understand what it has to do with the principles you cite. Is art fundamentally moral? Aren't you really just saying that they're better people than he is, by your standards?


Quote:

I don't think anyone here is claiming: because a person makes some art, that person is SHACKLED from the moment of its genesis to their death to focus upon nothing but honing that art . Such an idea is absurd.


Well when I said that, it was preceded by a quotation. What I said was something of an abstraction of what it seemed to me he was implying. It's up to him to respond as to whether he was really saying that, but I've certainly encountered wilder ideas.


Quote:

But it is not absurd to say that a person should have some principles attached to their art if thye are going to be making ART (as opposed to just entertainment).


All-caps Art as opposed to just entertainment? I have a problem with that but I can't seem to articulate it right now. Maybe I've said enough elsewhere or maybe I'll say something germane later.


Quote:

Art for arts sake, not art for corporate sponserhips sake.


Even that axiom relies upon the existance of art outside of its own sake.


Quote:

No one is claiming BA, or whoever, should spend every waking minute "honing their art," someone is saying they shouldn't use their art to get money through corporate sponsorships... this is a defensible position, even if you disagree with it. It all depends on your priority.


Hm, this is different, instead of attacking a straw man, you've dressed someone else's real man up in a straw outfit. That's not what the dude I quoted said.

I'll argue that with YOU, though, if you like. ^_^
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:32 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Quote:

Even that axiom relies upon the existance of art outside of its own sake.


I was stating my preference, not claiming that art that isn't for arts sake is "not art"
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:41 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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Maybe at that specific moment, but we're not arguing because you PREFER Fugazi to P Diddy. We're arguing because you're given to declaring the former more artistically valid than the latter on the basis of concerns unrelated to art on the whole, and because I don't think that works out.

Right?
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:00 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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it is not totally unrelated. As I pointed out, you are forced to make artistic sacrifices to do these types of "sell out" things. And on a second level...well there are two types of music.

I'm gonna cut and paste something I wrote in another forum:


Quote:

I think you can see, as a general rule, the two types of music out there. Music as art and music as entertainment/product. A band like radiohead (to use an example everyone might know) is making music as art. They are attempting new things, trying to perfect a craft, they strive for innovation etc... You might think they fail at this but I think you can probably recognize the difference between that and a group like Limp Bizcuit. the Limps are music as product and entertainment. LB is not trying to break any new ground. They are not doing anything new. They are merely repeating tired old forumulas and adding a heafty amount of marketing technique to it.

A hundred years from now, if there was a museum of music, you might see bands like Led Zepplin, Minutmen, Godspeed you black emperor! or Radiohead. You will not see bands like Limp Bizcuit or Britney Spears.

These artists are music for the moment, music for the current trend. Music to entertain and music to consume. LIkewise fiction literature is writing for the moment, of the current trend and to entertain/consume.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with music/literature made soley to entertain/consume. All of us enjoy listening or reading it sometimes. But I think there is a clear difference between between that and art for the sake of art or art to further art.



I think Fugazi is more artistically valid than puffy becuase they are simply more artistic, more concerned with art than entertainment. This is not entirly seperate form the issue of "selling out."

Look, I am fully aware of the angle you are trying to go for here, a kind of simpler foucault/barthes claim that art must be totally seperated from the author, but I am not entirly convinced by that argument. I think the satrian argument has some important insights that the foucaultian arguement misses. The authors intent IS important. These things do not exist in a vacuum.

EDIT: sorry these posts are so jumbled, Im kind of arguing along similar lines on some other boards and forgetting whats going on in eacch thread.
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:37 pm
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scribe



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 103
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Billy Gnosis wrote:
Selling out means different things to different people...And then there's the stupid fuckers who think that just because you're making 'some' money and eating every day you've sold out.

Bro Ali has sold out.



so basically your calling yourself a stupid fucker according to what you just wrote. this topic has been largely about how brother ali sold his song for money and advertisement
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:31 pm
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scribe



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 103
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djrion wrote:
Scribe, I generally agree with you, however I am very suprised to find out your opinoin on this matter. Especially your valued opinions regarding capitalism, anarchism, and socialism. This does not seem to fit your typical online personality.



i think your getting me mixed up with someone else. i rarely post here and i dont think i have any views on capitalism, anarchism, and socialism. if you feel your not mistaken, please lead me to these views cause i want to chack them out. (i know this may come off a lil smart ass as i re-read it, but it truley wasnt meant to be)
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:36 pm
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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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The only kind of sell-out is when there aren't any tickets left for a show.

What are these sacrifices you speak of, August Spies? I can understand that in the case of an anti-capitalist band, allowing their music to be used in a commercial could result in them being contractually or philosophically obligated to stop writing anti-capitalist songs. But in the case of artists who have never spoken out against corporations, what sacrifices might they have to make as a result of profiting from a relationship with a business?
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:52 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Quote:

what sacrifices might they have to make as a result of profiting from a relationship with a business?


well to use the example at hand, Brother Ali writes songs. He writes lyrics that fit together into a total song, a total work of art. Perhaps this song is even envisioned to fit with the other songs onto an album. Yet, he has to sacrifice much of this "artistic vision" to make a commerical. Only a fraction of the total work can be heard during the commercial and this has to be taken out of its original context and surrounded/overlapped by the advertisment.

These are perhaps small sacrifices, but I am just objecting to Jesse's claim that "this is the same music, the same lyrics"... it is NOT the same piece of art taken out of its context.


Last edited by August Spies on Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:49 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Quote:

The only kind of sell-out is when there aren't any tickets left for a show.


:roll: the last time I heard this was from the drummer for Metallica "yeah we sold out... every show on our last tour!"

stupid.
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:51 pm
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woogie



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 29
Location: St. Paul
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Well, I wasn't really accusing Ali of selling out, the commercial isn't just them using one of his songs, it was a spot that he did and it sounded like ant's production. I didn't even realize it was a commercial until almost the end, he was sayin that they got all the hot shit like 555soul and ecko and shit....Really wasn't too bad...and by the way Marshall Fields is what used to be Daytons, you know, the department store
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:45 pm
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Doctrine



Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 4626
Location: ATL, Livin' Swell
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This crap looks like the Def Jux board...

And that's pretty sad...
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:52 pm
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woogie



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 29
Location: St. Paul
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what? not running?
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:59 pm
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Spank Franklin



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 2
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the real sellouts are the 90% of the people who wake up everyday and go to some job they'd never be at unless they were getting paid.
Post Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:48 pm
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