Profile
Search
Register
Log in
matrix theory
View previous topic | View next topic >

Post new topic Reply to topic
Strange Famous Forum > Hall of Fame

Author Message
Random Sample



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 2460
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
 Reply with quote  


Quote:

we are all assuming that the architect is the final say in all matters


Yeah I was thinking this also. It could be another thing neo had to surpass. It could have been a trick to get neo to do what the matrix wanted him to do. Just another line of protection. There is so much that could happen.

How does the oracle know that he can't sleep because of the dreams? He is having them in the "real world" so how can she know about them? unless there were previous ones before neo. I guess she could read his mind and know him once he comes into the matrix.

Very complicated and very good. I like having in depth discussions about movies. I downloaded it so I am going to watch it a couple more times. I saw it twice in the theatres that was enough bank to spend on it. Now I am going to watch it for free.
Post Mon May 19, 2003 2:56 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BKGSP



Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 2354
 Reply with quote  

random_sample wrote:
How does the oracle know that he can't sleep because of the dreams? He is having them in the "real world" so how can she know about them? unless there were previous ones before neo. I guess she could read his mind and know him once he comes into the matrix.


maybe "The Ones" in the previous versions of the matrix had similar types of dreams.....she has been there since the beginning of the first matrix according to the architect it seems like......or maybe the pt i made bout the "real world" being a parallel matrix is true....i dont know
Post Mon May 19, 2003 3:04 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SneepSnopDotCom
COCKRING WRAITH


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 3087
Location: Wisconsin
 Reply with quote  

You guys are getting stuck on something. The whole thing with "real humans" is irrelevant. As far as we know, what we THOUGHT was outside of the matrix is still the matrix. In fact, the entire plotline that states robots and shit are enslaving human beings is all part of the matrix... zion is part of it too. They have yet to leave the marix, they were just allowed to think they were.

The beauty of this is that in part 3, they can reveal the truth to be ANYTHING. Where as before we had an idea about the overall plot.... neo is the one, he will end up freeing humans, humans win, long live zion, yay. But nowwwww, we don't have that. The entire plot that we thought was real was erased at the end of the 2nd film.

It is very possible that all this will end with neo being the last human that survived some sort of human-robot war that the humans started... everyone BUT him is fake. Think the omega man. Either that or they just take it another way where there IS an outside of the matrix, but they haven't even come close yet.

But wondering about the real humans and all that shit is completely irrelevant at this point.
Post Mon May 19, 2003 3:53 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
SneepSnopDotCom
COCKRING WRAITH


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 3087
Location: Wisconsin
 Reply with quote  

Then there is the classic rumor that all of this ends with neo waking up in a hospital and a guy that looks like agent smith hands him a blue pill and says "time for your medicine mister anderson".


IT WAS ALL A DREAM! OR WAS IT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??????!!!!!!!
Post Mon May 19, 2003 3:56 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
nose bleed



Joined: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 52
 Reply with quote  

i think that the only reason neo was able to stop the sentinals is because the
"real world" is just anothr matrix...kinda like a backup. but im an idiot so...
patrick
Post Mon May 19, 2003 4:04 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
BKGSP



Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 2354
 Reply with quote  

SneebDotCom wrote:
The entire plot that we thought was real was erased at the end of the 2nd film.


i couldnt agree more......thats why revolution is gonna be fuckin DOPE if they end it the right way, which judging by the preview they will
Post Mon May 19, 2003 4:36 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Krang
THE ORC BREATH


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Location: NSW, australia
 Reply with quote  

All i know is the architect and the oracle both said that trinity was going to die and there is nothing neo can do. She did die, but neo managed to resurrect her, which proved choice exists.
Post Mon May 19, 2003 5:21 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Lazy Eyed Pea



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 582
 Reply with quote  

I wonder why no one's mentioned the possibility of an introduction of some higher power to the real world in the movie series... that would work fine but then they'd dissappoint the masses.

I think the idea behind artificial intelligence is that it thinks, like humans think, like god thinks. There's a chain, computers are the conceivable end from where humans stand and it goes on infinitely in the other direction. Blah, blah, blah, I hate it when I say this shit.
Post Mon May 19, 2003 5:37 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
BKGSP



Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 2354
 Reply with quote  

Krang wrote:
All i know is the architect and the oracle both said that trinity was going to die and there is nothing neo can do. She did die, but neo managed to resurrect her, which proved choice exists.


according to the architect, she is still going to die


Quote:

There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species.



Quote:

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.


in both instances, trinity will die....one door leads back to the matrix where Neo saves her.....but eventually, the whole human race will be destroyed according to latter part of the 2nd quote......the other leads to the salvation of zion, which will result in the matrix starting all over again and trinity will still die according to the first part of the 2nd quote
Post Mon May 19, 2003 5:58 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
note1



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1260
Location: providence
conversation piece  Reply with quote  

I saw this yesterday and me and a friend sat through the credits to watch the preview and all we could come up with is that there are two likely possibilities.....

1) What Neo learned at the end is correct there have been 5 previous "ones" who all did the same thing he has....and he will ultimately do the same.. ie. sacrifice Zion in order to save humans as a race. (BTW how cool would it be to have to repopulate an entire race virtually by yourself?)

2) Somehow Morpheous is correct in his faith in the prophecy and that somehow Neo is different from the other "ones" and will truly lead to the destruction of the machines..

I know there are tons of other possibilities....the part where Neo stops the sentinels really had me scratching my head...but i am betting that this trilogy will end with some uncertainty as to whether the matrix is still incontrol..I love movies with ambigous endings.

Anyone have any other thoughts?
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:08 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
Krang
THE ORC BREATH


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Location: NSW, australia
 Reply with quote  

BKGSP wrote:
Krang wrote:
All i know is the architect and the oracle both said that trinity was going to die and there is nothing neo can do. She did die, but neo managed to resurrect her, which proved choice exists.


according to the architect, she is still going to die


Quote:

There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species.



Quote:

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.


in both instances, trinity will die....one door leads back to the matrix where Neo saves her.....but eventually, the whole human race will be destroyed according to latter part of the 2nd quote......the other leads to the salvation of zion, which will result in the matrix starting all over again and trinity will still die according to the first part of the 2nd quote


Ah ok

from that second quote it sounds as though the 'real' world with zion is in fact the real world, due to the fact the individuals neo has to choose will be for reproducing (16 female to 7 male). If it was another matrix they could just create it.
So that gives even more mystery to neo destroying the sentinels. Maybe he did get some power from agent smith. Or maybe there's an unexplainable divine element to it.... the machines have explanations for everything, but maybe there's no technological explanation, and instead it's some kind of human messiah complex which occurs throughout history, and isn't restricted by being plugged into a matrix.

just some thoughts
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:12 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
BKGSP



Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 2354
 Reply with quote  

Note1 - i dont think neo gets to populate anything.....the architect says he picks who gets to do the populating.....it makes sense though that Neo isnt a part of it......if other "Neos" got to repopulate in the subsequent matrix, i would figure they would step up and say they used to be "The One"....dont know if that makes sense lol
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:12 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wordsauce



Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 331
Location: Urbana, IL
 Reply with quote  

Neo as a program?

NO. Neo defies logic which a program cannot do. We all remember what happened to Hal in 2010. The Oracle tells him that he cannot see the choices he has not made. However, he sees that Trinity does indeed take a lethal wound in his dream.

Neo goes against all logic and chooses the door that will allow him to attempt to save Trinity.

The question I have is whether this is the same action that the previous five Neo's have made.

Additionally, I think it is much more likely that Morpheus is a program.

Assuming that the programs in the Matrix - the Oracle, Merovingian, and Architect - all say things that are meant to bring about the reset of the Matrix, then all three should have known that Neo was to choose the door he did. His human choice of love for Trinity was detected by Monica Belluci's character, the Merovingian's wife. I'd like thoughts on whether Neo did anything that the machines running the Matrix would have found as incompatible with previous Ones.

I agree that Neo and Zion are within a matrix, and the contents of the first movie exist primarily inside the matrix within a matrix.

Also, the Architect mentions that if Neo chooses the door that he does not, the people he chooses will restart Zion, and he will be used to reprogram the next Matrix as he carries all of the code. I think that this is a hint as to Agent Smith and Neo's 'cross-coding' implying that Agent Smith has integrated the entire Matrix code within him, allowing him to exist within any part of it.

As for feeling the Sentinels, I think that it is a clue as to what to expect from Neo's abilities in the third movie. Remember that even at the beginning of the movie, Neo is developing ESP of a sort within not the matrix within a matrix, but within the outer matrix containing Zion. He feels Agent Smith's presence outside of the meeting at the Secure Location.

I need to see the movie again...
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:14 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Swipe



Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 206
Location: Minneapolis
 Reply with quote  

Going into The Matrix: Reloaded, I wasn't worried if the fight scenes or special effects would measure up to the first film—it was the metaphysics that bothered me. The first Matrix was such a neat allegory of Gnostic philosophy, I was more concerned with how the Brothers Wachowski could successfully extend the metaphor into three films than whether they could pull off even more virtuoso examples of cinematic ass-stomping. What was mindblowing about the first movie, after all, wasn't the fight choreography or bullet time, but its brave assertion that the banal, day-to-day reality we live in isn't the real world. In that sense, all the wire-fu was just the candy coating on the red pill the filmmakers were offering to every high school student and cubicle slave in the world. (Though, since I study martial arts myself, I found the idea of kung fu as being metaphorical for something happening in hyper-reality, a la Thibault's mysterious circle, to be pretty darn appealing.)

Thankfully, Reloaded more than allayed my fears, even if it seems that half the reviewers either didn't understand what the Wachowskis were getting at, or else were only paying attention during the highway chase. Watching the movie, I was personally less impressed by the fists of digital fury than by the Brothers' evident familiarity with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the theology of Origen of Alexandria. Seen in the light of the books they're referencing, the movie's plot is brilliant; of course, to the non-initiate, the characters' actions and dialogue seems arbitrary and incomprehensible, and the exposition is just filler between car crashes. It would seem, therefore, that a bit of exegesis of The Matrix: Reloaded is warranted. But be warned: If you haven't seen the movie yet, don't read on. There are some major spoilers.

Much like that other great Keanu Reeves vehicle, Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, The Matrix: Reloaded centers around the hero's journey into the Underworld. Frazier, in The Golden Bough, notes that it is a prophetess—in this case, the Oracle—who sends the hero off on his journey, from where he returns with special knowledge. And, of course, that's just what Neo does, though it would have been a while lot more amusing if he'd had Alex Winter along. (The Oracle probably isn't entirely benign, by the way, even though she may not consciously intend any harm: She is, after all, the one who sent Neo on the path to the Core.)

Neo's first task is to rescue the Keymaker (Randall Duk Kim, doing his best Rick Moranis impression) from the Merovingian, who is a daemon—in both senses of the word—left over from a previous version of the Matrix. (The Merovingians were the ruling Frankish dynasty; they were succeeded by Charlemagne's family, the Carolingians, and then by the Capetians, who thought they were descended from Christ.) The guy in the health food store where I buy my granola and soy milk thinks that The Merovingian was one of Neo's predecessors, but all the explanation I need, as well as the way I understand his obvious fascination with human pleasures, is found in Genesis 6:4—"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. . ." According to various sources, including Kabbalah, this mating of men and angels (here, a computer program from an earlier version of the Martrix) is what produced various monsters, such as the vampires and wraiths that serve the Merovingian. Dante, bringing a Christian sensibility to the proceedings, placed these monsters in his Inferno. Thus, though the Merovingian is sort of an antediluvian remnant of the former world, he's also (as is shown by the fact that his wife is named Persephone) kind of like Hades, the holder of the keys to the underworld. What the Keymaker does, much like the golden bough the Sybil gives Aeneas, is open doors and permit Neo access to the underworld—or, in this case, the Core.

After the requisite battles and explosions, Neo gets into the Core and finds The Architect. Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo.

The important thing is choosing what to believe from the raft of condescending exposition that the Architect inflicts on Neo. He says, basically, that though ninety-nine percent of humans believe in the illusion of the Matrix, there is that troublesome one percent (comparable to the few awakened Gnostic true believers) who refuse to believe in the created world. This tends to produce massive amounts of instability, and crashes the system. (Not coincidentally, most of the people in Zion seem to be black or Hispanic, which makes perfect sense: If you're a white suburban Matrix resident, driving your Matrix SUV to your Matrix golf club, why doubt the nature of reality?) The solution is that they allow the dissidents to escape to Zion, which they can then periodically destroy. They have also created the Prophecy of the One, who is in fact a device sent by the machines into the "real" world so that his knowledge of humanity may be integrated into the system in order to further perfect the Matrix-illusion, and then allowed to re-start Zion so that the cycle can begin again. The idea of multiple creations and a cycle of created and destroyed worlds is, needless to say, also found in theologies as wildly variant as the Mayan and the Buddhist.

The idea that the Prophecy—and Zion—were just another means of control is lifted right out of French philosophy. The first movie made use of Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation; this movie seems to be dipping into Foucault and Derrida, who wrote that the systems of power and control are all-pervasive, and language is one of the ways they make their influence felt. The Prophecy is, like all prophecies, speech, and thus language. More importantly, it is a religion, and, as John Zerzan writes, the purpose of a religion is to manipulate signs, that is, words, for the purpose of control. Zion is the longed-for millennial promised land; by keeping the war between good and evil foremost in their hearts, even the freed humans are kept from doubting their own world, from thinking too hard about why things are the way they are.

Understanding why things are the way they are requires an understanding of another holy text: Asimov's Laws of Robotics. The machines, as demonstrated by Smith's need to try to kill Neo even after being "freed," don't have free will. (Likewise, in Gnostic theology, angels and other such divine beings also don't have free will—only humans do.) The bit about the machines needing human bio-energy to survive, as Morpheus (the dreamer) explained in the first movie, is bullshit. The machines keep humanity alive but imprisoned, even after taking over the world, because they were created to serve people. In other words, the machines would like to destroy humanity, but they CAN'T. Instead, they need a human to make the choice.

As the Architect reveals, Neo is not the first One, but rather the sixth. Why the sixth? The answer is that Neo's five previous incarnations represent the Five Books of Moses that make up the Old Testament. Neo (representing Christ, and thus the New Testament) differs from his five predecessors in his capacity to love. In the work of Origen of Alexandria and other Church Fathers, it is love ("eros" in Greek) that compels Christ to come down from the heavens to redeem humanity. Furthermore, "neo" means "new"—as in "New Covenant." In Neo, the machines have finally found the iteration of the One who will make the illogical choice of saving Trinity and dooming humanity. [Note to the theology geeks who've been e-mailing me: I know the difference between eros and agape, but Origen used both terms for reasons I'd have to delve into pre-Socratic philosophy to explain.]

This is the Architect's real purpose in giving Neo a choice between two doors. At once all human and all machine, rather than being a device to refine the Matrix into a more perfect simulation of reality, re-found Zion, and thus continue the endless cycle of death and rebirth—as the Architect says he is—the purpose of the One is to be manipulated into destroying all of humanity. However, not having free will themselves, the machines are not able to comprehend it in others—and thus Neo, being also human, is a bit of a wild card. It is Neo's destiny—as was Christ's in Origen's theology—to break the cycle of death and rebirth, and offer humanity a new future. This is shown by the fact that, by the end of the movie, Neo (and also, incidentally, Smith) gain power over machines in the "real world"—which shows that he has power not only over the first—level simulated world of the Matrix, but also the second-level simulation of Zion.

Miscellaneous touches I liked:

Neo and Trinity are shown making love beneath an arch. In religious iconography, being shown beneath an arch is a traditional sign of divinity. Masaccio's fresco at the right, for instance, shows the Holy Trinity beneath an arch.
The fact that The One comes from the machine world is a brilliant way to write around the fact that Keanu Reeves can't act.
Neo's own gift of prophecy is explainable by the fact that, like the Oracle, he comes from beyond the Matrix—that is, the world—and thus exists outside of time, much like God in St. Augustine's theology.
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:19 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
hugh grants hooker
Guest




 Reply with quote  

i think that neo is really human. he is however supposedly a 'true messiah'. so not only can he effect the matrix, but he has supernatural abilities in the 'real world' as well. i think that when he stopped the sentinels in the tunnel, it was just proving that he isnt like the 5 or 6 other 'the ones' that came before him... he is 'the final messiah'. .. . if that makes sense to you. i dont know how well i just expressed myself.

however, morpheus is a program.
and trinity may be too, just a muse type program intended to inspire neo.

also, agent smiths escape from the matrix is preparing us for the knowledge that programs exist outside the matrix (morpheus and trinity).
Post Mon May 19, 2003 6:32 pm
 

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
All times are GMT - 6 Hours.
The time now is Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:33 pm
  Display posts from previous:      


Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
Template created by The Fathom
Based on template of Nick Mahon