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anaheim13



Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 334
Location: CA
is rap poetry?  Reply with quote  

It can be considered bad poetry. Paradise Lost by Milton doesn't rhyme - it's in blank verse. Poetry has to do with metrical variations and the alignment of assonant and dissonant phonetical constructions to enforce the point being made, just to start with. I have a serious problem with most contemporary poetry because it lacks, well, skill. It's like someone rips out a page of their journal and decides to read it at Diedrich's. Poetry goes all the way back to Ancient Greece - one of the first known being Homer. There is a history of it, and today that history is not being acknowledged for sociopolitical reasons particuarly by University of California institutions. I'm of the school of thought that if you want to call it poetry, then sure, go ahead. But be prepared to have it compared to the greats - Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Donne, Shelley, Byron, Pope, Johnson, Blake etc... Then it is bad poetry. And bad poetry sucks and should not be in existence. So if you want to call it a song, lyric, rap, whatever, do it within that medium unless you really think it can compare to what goes on in real poetry.. Real poetry uses language in a way that is the most compact and meaningful arrangment possible.

If poetry is nothing more than a way to express yourself, then I've been wasting the last few years of my life. This is a minor point to most people I'm sure, but one of the reasons most people can't appreciate poetry is because they don't even know what it is. It's either rap music, Jim Morrison's lyrics or Sylvia Plath. All shit in terms of poetry. Unless you're able to defend rap music by showing that it has the same value as something by Milton or Keats, then don't call it poetry.


a post i came across...anybody have any comments? (when the person says "it can be considered bad poetry," theyre not talking about rap in general, but replying to someones post).


Last edited by anaheim13 on Sat May 03, 2003 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Sat May 03, 2003 3:24 pm
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Jesus Frank



Joined: 12 Jul 2002
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Due to that irritating red text I didn't read your post, but yeah, some is.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 3:28 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
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word billy. That's what I was trying to say yesterday. Looks like someone took it upon themselves to clean up my mess.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 4:04 pm
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bobbythebear



Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 254
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he fucked up the moment he discussed sociopolitical issues, because the cannon of "great" poets is in itself determined by sociopolitical forces (the European College Professor crowd). I dont see any asians, American Indians, Africans . . . have they all always been inept in the art of poetry?

Furthermore, none of these poets were considered "great" until they were no longer writing, they had to contend with the more forgetable poets of their time. That poem by Reggie Gibson comes to mind - the one where he responds to the professor's claim that poetry is merely "the sum of its parts."

None of these greats were beyond the common flaws of their generation. Shakespeare wrote some vewry formulaic, borrowed plays, and I will go on record to say that his sonnets are overrated (bring the hate). Shelly preached an ideal of love that he did not even pretend to live up to. Keats was ridiculed by Byron, who was petty enough to blast anyone who wrote differently than he. and Blake was a spiritual snob. Shelly would shit down this loser's throat, because the criticism he gives today's poetry, elitist critics gave to Romantic poetry, which he refuts in his "defense of poetry".

but he got one thing right . . . he has wasted his life. and it doesnt mean shit to me. this generation will have its great poets, just like every generation before. the use of rhyme and bar patterns in rap is no different than the iambic pentameter fad of Elizebethian poetry.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 4:42 pm
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DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
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.......  Reply with quote  

Jesus Frank wrote:
Due to that irritating red text I didn't read your post, but yeah, some is.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 5:13 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
Re: is rap poetry?  Reply with quote  

anaheim13 wrote:
It can be considered bad poetry. Paradise Lost by Milton doesn't rhyme - it's in blank verse. Poetry has to do with metrical variations and the alignment of assonant and dissonant phonetical constructions to enforce the point being made, just to start with. I have a serious problem with most contemporary poetry because it lacks, well, skill. It's like someone rips out a page of their journal and decides to read it at Diedrich's. Poetry goes all the way back to Ancient Greece - one of the first known being Homer. There is a history of it, and today that history is not being acknowledged for sociopolitical reasons particuarly by University of California institutions. I'm of the school of thought that if you want to call it poetry, then sure, go ahead. But be prepared to have it compared to the greats - Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Donne, Shelley, Byron, Pope, Johnson, Blake etc... Then it is bad poetry. And bad poetry sucks and should not be in existence. So if you want to call it a song, lyric, rap, whatever, do it within that medium unless you really think it can compare to what goes on in real poetry.. Real poetry uses language in a way that is the most compact and meaningful arrangment possible.

If poetry is nothing more than a way to express yourself, then I've been wasting the last few years of my life. This is a minor point to most people I'm sure, but one of the reasons most people can't appreciate poetry is because they don't even know what it is. It's either rap music, Jim Morrison's lyrics or Sylvia Plath. All shit in terms of poetry. Unless you're able to defend rap music by showing that it has the same value as something by Milton or Keats, then don't call it poetry.

a post i came across...anybody have any comments? (when the person says "it can be considered bad poetry," theyre not talking about rap in general, but replying to someones post).



jeez. And it was orange not red.




Why do you people say some of rap is poetry? If some rap is poetry, isn't all rap poetry?

WHY DOES RAP HAVE TO BE POETRY!? Why isn't it being rap good enough for you?

Poetry makes no sense anymore, this is poetry, do you feel it?
I think the first thing for any sort of art is intent. What was the artist intending. A rap artist is not intending to make poetry, otherwise he would not refer to himself and market himself as a rapper. He would say, HI I am a poet. Listen to my poems. Read my poetry book. But he doesn't. He's too busy dissing some other emcee.

He's a writer. That's the common thread he has with a poet. Some rappers are poets. Sure. But music that is presented as such is not a poetry. It's music.

Is the rap producer a poet? Because oftentimes his role in the piece is just as, or more important than the actual words--some producers say more with sounds than a rapper could with words--so by your loose definition of poetry, doesn't a musician become a poet as well. even though they are not even using words!?even.

Seriously, someone please come in here and calmly convince me that everyone hasn't gone crazy with emcee idolatry.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 5:42 pm
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Nope



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916
Re: is rap poetry?  Reply with quote  

futuristxen wrote:


He's a writer. That's the common thread he has with a poet. Some rappers are poets. Sure. But music that is presented as such is not a poetry. It's music.



why can't one be both? I don't get why you're so stuck with labels

look at the man whose messageboard you're on....he's a poet...he's also "a writer"...he's also a "rapper"

you can be a musician and a poet at the same time...your can write a song that is poetic.

Why can't there be music that is poetic? So poetic in fact that the man who wrote it is considered a poet himself?

What's the big deal here?

P.s. Dude from TOOL is a poet...recognize
Post Sat May 03, 2003 6:05 pm
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Nope



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916
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this is poetry...some consider it some of the best ever written

She rose to His Requirement--
Dropt the Playthings of Her life
To take the honorable Work
Of Woman, and of Wife--

WOW...this is so far beyond anything any song writer has ever done...now I can see why they can't be called poets

please...
Post Sat May 03, 2003 6:09 pm
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Krang
THE ORC BREATH


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Location: NSW, australia
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bobbythebear wrote:
he fucked up the moment he discussed sociopolitical issues, because the cannon of "great" poets is in itself determined by sociopolitical forces (the European College Professor crowd). I dont see any asians, American Indians, Africans . . . have they all always been inept in the art of poetry?

Furthermore, none of these poets were considered "great" until they were no longer writing, they had to contend with the more forgetable poets of their time. That poem by Reggie Gibson comes to mind - the one where he responds to the professor's claim that poetry is merely "the sum of its parts."

None of these greats were beyond the common flaws of their generation. Shakespeare wrote some vewry formulaic, borrowed plays, and I will go on record to say that his sonnets are overrated (bring the hate). Shelly preached an ideal of love that he did not even pretend to live up to. Keats was ridiculed by Byron, who was petty enough to blast anyone who wrote differently than he. and Blake was a spiritual snob. Shelly would shit down this loser's throat, because the criticism he gives today's poetry, elitist critics gave to Romantic poetry, which he refuts in his "defense of poetry".

but he got one thing right . . . he has wasted his life. and it doesnt mean shit to me. this generation will have its great poets, just like every generation before. the use of rhyme and bar patterns in rap is no different than the iambic pentameter fad of Elizebethian poetry.


that post owned
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:03 pm
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Jesus Frank



Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 2295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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It WAS red before he edited it. But nevermind.

I'm with RandomSurge on this one. Fuck a label. And again, there is definitely poetry in rap. Bad poetry? Yes, as there has always been less talent than practicioners, a lot of that is inevitable. But that exactly goes for poetry written by "poets" too. So that argument falls flat on its face.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:08 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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If it's all about "fuck a label" then why do you want to label rappers as poets?

Maybe since Sage has been labeled both he would be the best person to clear up the diffrence between a rapper and a poet. The fact of the matter is that Sage is both, as you say RandomSurge. But the fact that he keeps the poet label, or the rapper label and performs poetry and performs rap--Seperately--says to me that he sees a diffrence.

Sage, when you sit down to write, is there a diffrence between your poetry and your rap material? If so, what's the diffrence, and why do you make the distinction, if it is as so many are argueing here, that there is no diffrence?
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:30 pm
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Nope



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916
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I never said "fuck a label"...someone else did

in this instance it's not THAT important...

and OF COURSE there's a difference between hip-hop sage and spoken word sage

so? Hey bobby was originally a spoken word poem...a new verse was added and it was done over a beat. It became a song

so??

I can spit

She rose to His Requirement--
Dropt the Playthings of Her life
To take the honorable Work
Of Woman, and of Wife--

over a beat and all of the sudden it's not poetry anymore?

If you're going to be so stuck on labels, then when you find a musician that is poetic, call his material "poetic music" and be done with it

seriously
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:37 pm
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DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: www.NERDTORIOUS.com
.....  Reply with quote  

....seriously Anaheim, enough already.

abacus
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:46 pm
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anaheim13



Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 334
Location: CA
Re: .....  Reply with quote  

abacus7 wrote:
....seriously Anaheim, enough already.

abacus





enough of what....
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:59 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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what about this:
A poem is presented chiefly on a page. It's a type of writing. It doesn't have any ties to performance.

Rapping is a performance art. Just as slam poetry stuff is performance art. It doesn't matter as much what you say, as how you say it. That the words may look good when you chuck them on a page afterward is incidental to the original intent which was a performance.

Thus, rap is not poetry, though it may be poetic. Because it's basis and intent is on the performance of those words.

Where you get into sketchy ground is with lyrics sheets. Clearly to some artists their work is also meant to be read by itself, and to stand on its own(an example of this would be some of Dose-One's work, which clearly plays with the presentation on the page of the words, and has a definite focus towards presentation as a poem.)

However, Aesop Rock doesn't even include lyrics sheets with his music. Therefore he doesn't exhibit any sort of intention towards being taken past the performance of his words. And therefore labeling him a poet is not objectively supportable.

But seriously, I'm not going to argue. I thought it was an interesting topic, and this is my ill informed outlook on the topic.
Post Sat May 03, 2003 7:59 pm
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