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iamjoao



Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 92
Location: northern california
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also:

poem: A verbal composition designed to convey experiences, ideas, or emotions in a vivid and imaginative way, characterized by the use of language chosen for its sound and suggestive power and by the use of literary techniques such as meter, metaphor, and rhyme.

A composition in verse rather than in prose.

A literary composition written with an intensity or beauty of language more characteristic of poetry than of prose.

A creation, object, or experience having beauty suggestive of poetry.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 4:50 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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iamjoao wrote:
also:

poem: A verbal composition designed to convey experiences, ideas, or emotions in a vivid and imaginative way, characterized by the use of language chosen for its sound and suggestive power and by the use of literary techniques such as meter, metaphor, and rhyme.

A composition in verse rather than in prose.

A literary composition written with an intensity or beauty of language more characteristic of poetry than of prose.

A creation, object, or experience having beauty suggestive of poetry.


Those definitions are contridictory. It first says a verbal composition(so a freestyle is a poem?) and then it says a literary composition. I wasn't sure by your remark about novels whether or not you understood me, because clearly that is an absurd point and complete miscarriage of the arguements that have been presented.

And then as far as my refusal to denote a rapper a poet out of malice--no, it's the other way. I like hiphop. I like listening. I do not however like reading poetry. I would rather listen to Ginsburg perform Howl 30 times before reading it once. And it has to do with Ginsburg's voice as much as anything.

If we are to classify poetry in the manner you and others have suggested, then I like Ludacris as a poet more than a William Blake, because Ludacris sounds better. Ludacris can spit a wack line and make it sound like gold. If Ludacris covered a William Blake poem, who is the poet in that instance? Ludacris is going to add a million things to Tiger, Tiger. But if Sarah Vowell read the same poem, it wouldn't sound half as dope, so then what do you say? They are reading the same words, Ludacris is just coming better. Does that mean ludacris is reading a better poem? But they are reading the same poem?

So what you have to do is cut out the performance aspect and judge the words that were written originally if you are going to talk about poetry. Because otherwise it's all performance.

So yeah, Like I said, Lyrics can be poetry as they are written down, but rap is not poetry, because rap is the performance of emceeing over beats and has more to do with who is spiiting it and how, than what they are spitting. See the distinction and why it needs to be made?

you can rap poetry, but you can't poetry rap.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 5:13 pm
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Krang
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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futuris im pretty sure those were seperate definitions and they dont contradict each other because the english language has lots of slight variations in meaning for each word. Look up any word in the dictionary and im sure it has 3 slightly or even greatly different definitions for it.

I dont get what the argument is. Are all the "rap isnt poetry" people saying because rap is created to be delivered with speach, then it isnt poetry? Because that doesn't make sense. The core of poetry is that it is eventually delivered with speach, thats what's so powerful about it.

I think all rap has poetic qualities, and that rap is a modern form of poetry. I mean shit, cant people ADAPT to things changing? If post-modern art can break boundaries yet still be considered art, why cant speaking poetic style lyrics to music be considered poetry?

But as i said before, if the COMPOSER considers their work poetry then I consider it poetry. It's their work and it's their choice what they classify it as, not us bums on a messageboard having endless arguments where we refuse to listen to each others ideas (myself included) ;)
Post Sun May 04, 2003 5:56 pm
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Nope



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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futuristxen wrote:

So yeah, Like I said, Lyrics can be poetry as they are written down, but rap is not poetry, because rap is the performance of emceeing over beats and has more to do with who is spiiting it and how, than what they are spitting.



the answer is right there in your post...I don't get how you don't see it

ok so lyrics can be poetry as they are written down...but they stop to be once they are peformed? HA

I hope you realize they are only performed once they're written down. The only way you rap without having something written is freestyling, and that's another artform altogether.

So if I have 28 songs that I've written...haven't performed them anywhere...they're just in my notepad or something.

They're poetry as they are written down. That means that I must be a poet of some sorts or else how could I have written 28 poems? right?

but once they are performed, they become something else...but they never stop being poetic works.

You're trying to completely separate the two when you don't need to. Regardless if I'm spitting them or if you're reading them. My 28 poems are going to be poems. They don't stop being poems simply because I'm spitting them over beats. For musical and marketing purposes, my shit is labeled "hip hop"....so?

You're trying to say the distinction lies in the performance....of course!! WHEN I'm spitting my lyrics over a beat, I'm "rapping"...I'm not "poeting"

that doesn't mean my 28 little songs stopped being poetry all of the sudden

Like I said...if you need a label so bad...call it "poetic music"
Post Sun May 04, 2003 6:23 pm
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anaheim13



Joined: 03 May 2003
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poetry has rules. does rap, whether written down or performed, follow these rules?
Post Sun May 04, 2003 6:47 pm
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SneepSnopDotCom
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Poetry has no fucking rules you douchebags!!! GRAAGSAHDKJYFRKMXFDM,

The idea of prose, poetry, etc... fuck all that. There are no rules... if I smear my feces on paper and call it a poem then it is a fucking poem. Die.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:02 pm
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mortalthoughts
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wouldnt that be 'art' ??? :)
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:03 pm
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iamjoao



Joined: 02 May 2003
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actually poetry really doesn't have RULES... it has techniques and forms and various other things like that, but there's no one thing that really makes a poem a poem or not a poem. i mean, if you can have free verse poetry, then poetry can't really have any rules... at least not anymore.

music used to have rules too, but now people make free jazz and minimalist music and break the "rules" of tonality and make whatever the fuck they want because all those rules have become meaningless... rules hinder art, forms and techniques enhance it.

anyway to respond to futurist: have you ever heard william blake spit Tiger, Tiger? i haven't, i don't think there are any recordings of that out there, so how would you really know that ludacris spits it better? i mean, that's really besides the point. you're choosing to judge poems based on something other than their content, and it seems like you really only care about the performance aspect of these poems. i think if you just care how shit sounds, and don't really care what it says, you're missing half the point. that's like if i chose to just read rappers lyric sheets and say well this guys a good rapper and this guy sucks... while the guy with shitty lyrics might make them sound really good a la ludacris or e-40, and the guy with good lyrics might sound really crappy like... i don't know, a million guys out there.

"So yeah, Like I said, Lyrics can be poetry as they are written down, but rap is not poetry, because rap is the performance of emceeing over beats and has more to do with who is spiiting it and how, than what they are spitting. See the distinction and why it needs to be made? "

i disagree that rap has More to do with who is spitting and how than what they are spitting. i think rap is equal parts content and form, and that when one takes precedence over the other the resulting lack of balance is detrimental to the overall effect. a lot of the time it is dope anyway, but i think that a rapper should strive to excel at both, because rap really is, as i said, a synthesis of content and form, poetry and music, and each hemisphere is equally important. so no, i don't see why that distinction needs to be made, and in fact i think it needs to NOT be made.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:12 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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RandomSurge wrote:


You're trying to say the distinction lies in the performance....of course!! WHEN I'm spitting my lyrics over a beat, I'm "rapping"...I'm not "poeting"

that doesn't mean my 28 little songs stopped being poetry all of the sudden




Yep that's what I'm saying. Glad you could articulate again and make it sound like we were in disagreement.

Rap is performance.

Lyrics are the writing.

Only the lyrics as written can be considered poetry. But rap is not poetry. Because rap is a term that is predicated,unlike poetry, or the novel, entirely upon the performance. You can't write lyrics and "be a rapper" without spitting them(I don't care what a netcee tries to tell you!). But you can just write a poem and be a poet. Do you see the very important distinction in the terms? You do. I know you do, because you've said as much.

If I said anymore I would just be repeating myself again.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:17 pm
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SneepSnopDotCom
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The thing with "techniqus and forms" is this... imagine poetry is this weird jungle that you are fighting your way through... it seems impossible, and the possibility of looking like a stupid jerk getting caught in the vines is very possible... therefore most people just look at the jungle from afar... some people try to go into the jungle, but they go for the path already laid out... not too many vines on that path, it's easier, and yet, they are still attempting to enter the jungle, which is still better than the onlookers. Most can end up very content in this wau. Pretty easy shit... It's the guy that hacks through it all, despite the path - he is the guy that gets somewhere.


Fuck your rules, your forms, and most of all fuck your techniques.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:18 pm
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iamjoao



Joined: 02 May 2003
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re sneeb: i think the forms and techniques could be, in your analogy, considered the machete with which your "guy who hacks through it all" hacks through...

re futurist: again... rap is performed poetry, but poetry is also unperformed rap. i don't see why it's important to you to distinguish the two.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:24 pm
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anaheim13



Joined: 03 May 2003
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let me see if i can get this clear...


futurist: rap (as lyrics) = poetry
rap (as a performance) = not poetry


iamjoao: rap as both lyrics and a performance is poetry

is that where you two stand? or did i fuckin miss the point...again
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:44 pm
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Dee



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Uh, you guys know that poetry is performed?

Ever heard of a poetry reading?

Hip hop is "poetry," just like Bob Dylan is a "poet," etc.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:48 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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iamjoao wrote:

re futurist: again... rap is performed poetry, but poetry is also unperformed rap. i don't see why it's important to you to distinguish the two.


g'wah? poetry is unperformed rap? by that line of thinking, country music lyrics, when written down are just unperformed rap? In some sense you're right, but that a really strange and confused way to put it.

I disagree entirely that rap as a rule has to have content. If it doesn't sound dope it won't sell. Like I said, Ludacris could sell Tiger, Tiger--but Sarah Vowell may have some problems--and that is because rap is a performance based, and performance judged artform. It's a cousin to public speaking--which also is 90 percent how you say it. The last thing people will check for is content. But a lack of content does not make something not a dope rap song. Look at the album sales of Ja Rule compared to Talib Kweli and try and tell me that content means anything in rap.

In a poem the only thing to be judged are the words as they are written.

Some of you are confusing(as bluntedmichigan pointed out) art with poetry. Smearing feces on paper can be art. But the lack of words on paper seriously hampers it's classification as poetry. I mean, why call your feces on paper poetry? why not call it a film? or is that too "crazy".

Poetry may be the most ill-defined of literary terms(it seems to serve as a catch-all phrase for anything not prose)--but it is written. That is the one rule. Because of that rule, rap lyrics can be presented as poetry--but emceeing, performance, that is not poetry because it is not written.
Post Sun May 04, 2003 7:49 pm
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Nope



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so then why did you say that Aesop wasn't a poet?

You said he was an mc, not a poet

I was like...he's both

and you got into this whole thing about performance in music and shit

which is obvious

but I still don't see why you must have a cut and dry distinction...simply because you're performing your music as hip hop doesn't mean that you stopped being a poet nor did your lyrics stop being poetry.

so what's the big deal?
Post Sun May 04, 2003 8:08 pm
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