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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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dab amrahk wrote:
Christianity is infused with paganism. If you don't think so, look into the front window of a few of the houses on your block during Christmas and you'll most likely find a tree sitting square in the living room.


Except that Neo-Pagans believe that the birth of Christ was sometime in April. And I'm sure that they didn't decorate the tree with flashy lights and tinsel.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:35 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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Jesse wrote:


Moreover, I think it's strange that you say "still". Until perhaps... let's generously say two hundred years ago... "the desire for religion at all" was taken as a given by every man woman and child on the whole of the planet Earth. Doesn't it seem to you as though questioning it is a development rather than something that's "still" going on? Or do you think that we've had about enough of that and it's time to pursue another line of inquiry?


That's exactly how I feel. Basing your whole life around other peoples beliefs and not questioning it out of fear can't be anything but detrimental for one's mind, body and soul. Although I strongly believe in a higher power I think that most Atheists are better off then most theists. Not just better off, but wiser and on the right track.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:39 pm
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dab amrahk



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 9
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FireFly wrote:

Except that Neo-Pagans believe that the birth of Christ was sometime in April. And I'm sure that they didn't decorate the tree with flashy lights and tinsel.


Oh the date of Christ's birth and tinsel changes everything, except of course the fact that it changes absolutely nothing. Whether you decorate your tree with lights, tinsel, dead baby's feet, or used tampons, means absolutely nothing. The religious significance of the tree stays the same. Contemporary cultural traits have nothing to do with the fact that Christianity is littered with paganism, but sorry, I know that the mere mentioning of the word Christianity along side paganism taints your idealistic little experimentation in becoming a pagan, but it had to be done.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:48 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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The Yule tree (x-mas tree) is just another example of how our culture celebrates a holiday without even knowing the real significance.

I'm not gonna get into detail with this but I'm not some ignorant Christian basher. I don't really have a problem with Christianity, it's the corruption of the church, the dogma, the genocide and all the other fun stuff that go with organized religion that infuriate me.

And. . . OF COURSE THERE ARE SIMILARITIES IN CHRISTIANITY AND PAGANISM. If you look you will find similarities in all the religions. I see more similarities then contradictions.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:01 pm
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duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 3208
Location: San Diego,CA
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FireFly wrote:

I think that most Atheists are better off then most theists. Not just better off, but wiser and on the right track.


On what basis? Belief is belief whether its denial or confirmation of God, they are both equal in merit and illogic.

Brian
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:08 pm
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sleeklegend



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 807
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God isn't "all around us" or "nature"

God is everything. Every possible thing you could think of...it is the concept of LIFE...and everything it entails. And it is either recognized, or denied by people...and it exists whether we take time to feel it intuitively or not. Is it that "oceanic feeling"? Yes, I think so.

Is this another weed-induced rant? No.

Ok, maybe.

Regardless.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:16 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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Well, keep in mind that I said MOST atheist and MOST theists. Many Atheists are just as ignorant and closed minded to other peoples beliefs and many Christians. I always thought there was a fine line between them.

The reason I say most Atheists are better off and wiser is because they believe what they believe in of their OWN FOLITION. It's rare that children are forced into Atheism by their parents. Fact is, so many theists don't read anything but the Bible. A lot of Atheists that I've met have read many things on many religions and have formed an opinon ON THEIR OWN about what they beleive. This alone is enough reason for me to beleive that they are wiser.

Also, we live in an age of science, technology and (at least I believe) reason. The church just doesn't have the same impact of the masses like they used to. I strongly beleive that this wave of people giving up their faith in the church is extremly benificial for humanity. If people beleive in anything blindly we won't have any progress.

Plus, you can't prove a negative. This is where it should end.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:29 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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sleeklegend wrote:
God isn't "all around us" or "nature"

God is everything. Every possible thing you could think of...it is the concept of LIFE...and everything it entails. And it is either recognized, or denied by people...and it exists whether we take time to feel it intuitively or not. Is it that "oceanic feeling"? Yes, I think so.

Is this another weed-induced rant? No.

Ok, maybe.

Regardless.


I agree.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:31 pm
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hugh grants hooker
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jesse - i dont think we should question a person's desire for religion. in any way. if we should, then what else should we question? should we question every desire that people have? if it doesnt hurt you, then let them do it. dont discourage them. let them try it, if it doesnt work out, then let them just as easily walk away from it. it their personal thing, we dont have the right to question it. if they say they want to try a religion that requires killing shit and stealing or something crazy like that, then by all means stop them. but i dont think this is the case with most people.

and as far as christianity being linked with paganism... it shouldnt be. the joining comes from ignorance.
at the church i attended regularly until a few years ago, they had a class that anyone could voluntarily come to. it was called:
"Be christian or be pagan".
the teacher specifically mentioned things like easter, christmas, and holloween.

easter shouldnt have a bunny or eggs, they dont have shit to do with a resurection.

christmas shouldnt have a tree or santa claus and reindeer... they dont have shit to do with jesus' birth. and it shouldnt even be in december, most christian sects place the actual birth around september 16th.

holloween... well, christians dont have any right to be involved in this at all.

...and as far as lumping other religions with paganism. its not just paganism that gets that. look at christianity man, its so full of such different things. for instance catholicism. that shit isnt even christianity anymore. they admittedly make their own rules up. yet still, when a priest fucks a little boy everybody blames christianity.
and same with native american shaman being lumped with pagans. a shaman would be pretty upset if you accused them of being pagan. that was the cause of a lot of deaths in native americans over the years. when they tried to practice their own religion they were accused of paganism or satanism and they were killed or thrown in prison. that shit isnt even old news, it didnt stop until around '78. thats far too recently to still be killing off native americans.

anyway i'm rambling. just have fun, learn, and then learn more.
Post Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:30 pm
 
bobbythebear



Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 254
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hugh grants hooker wrote:
and as far as christianity being linked with paganism... it shouldnt be. the joining comes from ignorance.



from what I understand it shouldnt be, but it was more out of convenience, right? The Celtic branch of the Catholic church was not up on certain changes made in Rome when missionaries started conversions in Europe, and thus gave the Pagans a flawed version of Christianity. To assist in bringing everyone into the fold and centralizing attention on Rome, key moments in the life of Christ were aligned with Pagan holidays.

thats how the story goes, right? this isnt criticism at all, I'm only recently learning history from that period. anyhow, the link shouldnt be there, but if it werent I doubt Christianity would be popular today.
Post Thu May 01, 2003 12:20 am
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killedbysharks



Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: palm springs, ca.
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FireFly wrote:
Well, keep in mind that I said MOST atheist and MOST theists. Many Atheists are just as ignorant and closed minded to other peoples beliefs and many Christians. I always thought there was a fine line between them.

The reason I say most Atheists are better off and wiser is because they believe what they believe in of their OWN FOLITION. It's rare that children are forced into Atheism by their parents. Fact is, so many theists don't read anything but the Bible. A lot of Atheists that I've met have read many things on many religions and have formed an opinon ON THEIR OWN about what they beleive. This alone is enough reason for me to beleive that they are wiser.

Also, we live in an age of science, technology and (at least I believe) reason. The church just doesn't have the same impact of the masses like they used to. I strongly beleive that this wave of people giving up their faith in the church is extremly benificial for humanity. If people beleive in anything blindly we won't have any progress.

Plus, you can't prove a negative. This is where it should end.


On the subject of athiests: My mom, to my knowledge is an athiest. In my entire life my mother never talked to me about "god". Since I've existed, i have never believed in any kind of "god". Its just not in me. It doesnt have anything to do with logic, just my own feelings. For about a year i tried to tell myself there might be something, but no matter how hard i try to convince myself i just cant take it seriously. I dont know how everything exists, and i dont know where everything came from, but I think it is a bit beyond our capacity to try and understand that stuff anyway. I honestly dont know how to believe in god, it just doesnt feel natural to me.
My opinion on religion is this: people need something to control their lives, because they think they cannot control their own. If it is not religion then it is always something else. It is easier to have something motivating you other than yourself. For example: Excersizing cause you want to look good for summer, rather than excersizing to feel good and be healthy for yourself. It is a character flaw in almost every human being ive ever met, and it is kind of depressing.
The only thing that remains constant in your life is you
Post Thu May 01, 2003 5:48 am
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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Just one thing for consideration: practicing agnostics must constantly search for answers to the infinite number of questions concerning the very world around them. To date, there has not been one absolute answer given to anything. People with faith, however, already have all of the answers to their satisfaction.
Post Thu May 01, 2003 6:20 am
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Clark Nova



Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 118
Location: Arcturus
Center of the Cyclone  Reply with quote  

"In the province of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within limits to be found experientally and experimentally. These limits are beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits." - John C. Lilly
Post Thu May 01, 2003 7:30 am
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killedbysharks



Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: palm springs, ca.
Re: Center of the Cyclone  Reply with quote  

KnozarK wrote:
"In the province of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within limits to be found experientally and experimentally. These limits are beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits." - John C. Lilly



Holy Shit I have this book!!!!!!! I got it in the thrift store for 10 cents when i was 12. I just thought it would be cool to read about a guy on lsd reporting about the brain and stuff. Turns out the book was very interesting. Radical.

The way i see it is everybody is right about the whole "god" issue. I will always be right in my own mind, cause that is where i exist. I see everything through my eyes, and i can never change that, same with everybody else.

"Just one thing for consideration: practicing agnostics must constantly search for answers to the infinite number of questions concerning the very world around them. To date, there has not been one absolute answer given to anything. People with faith, however, already have all of the answers to their satisfaction."---reggie

--I think you are playing devils advocate here, but ill respond anyway.
Actually being agnost is having faith. I cannot prove where everything came from, but i have faith in myself, and my own reasoning. Just the same as a christian having faith in the reasoning of their religion. \
"People with faith, however, already have all of the answers to their satisfaction"
---no they dont. Even religious people will question their beliefs at some point. How many religions do you know of that are full of contradictions? It is easier to create your own opinions instead of limiting yourself to preexisting theories and belief systems. I think for myself, and i am satisfied with that.
I dont worry myself with questions that will never be answered about my existence. I just worry about taking care of my life now.
Post Thu May 01, 2003 3:03 pm
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Micranot



Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 134
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Reggie wrote:
Just one thing for consideration: practicing agnostics must constantly search for answers to the infinite number of questions concerning the very world around them. To date, there has not been one absolute answer given to anything. People with faith, however, already have all of the answers to their satisfaction.


Huh? As a practicing agnostic, I do try to think and find out answers to the questions that are more important to me, and am aware enough to know when such answers are beyond my capacity, but it is simply not true that we "MUST CONSTANTLY search for answers to the INFINITE number of questions concerning" the world around us. Sure people with faith are satisfied with their answers, the premise of religion is so vague that it can not be argued against, just because you beleive in a religious book doesnt in fact mean they have the real answers, just the answer to their satisfaction like you say, and to me that seems a problem more than anything else.

In fact, the very same statement "people with faith already have answers to satisfaction" can be applied to agnostics too, its just that our answers revolve around the empirically backed things we observe, not what doctine tell us. The answers that chemistry, biolgy, physics, math, psychology, economics, etc have provided thus far have been more than adequate for my needs. I dont claim to know if there is a god, but science sure seems to have a lot better answers then religions do.

Basically, I disagree with everything in that statement, where did you read this notion that a true practicing agnostic must consistently be searching for answers to the questions of the universe, many of us are just content to leave those questions as unanswerable and focus on questions that can be answered.
Post Thu May 01, 2003 3:19 pm
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