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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
Lets talk about Islam and Liberals  Reply with quote  

Since I'm the only one posting threads anymore I want to balance it out a bit and take the convo me and jenkins started in the podcast thread here.

Its a hot topic on the social media right now.





Post Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:21 pm
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CriticalTheory_Breakfast



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 1421
Location: NYC/Rochester
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Ben Affleck is a silly, silly man. And I don't know much about Ayaan Hirsi except that she was weirdly under attack in a Jon Stewart interview once in which he argued against points she wasn't making.

I will say this, though. By and large, liberals who defend Islam as a religion know very little about it. They know very little about what it means to be Muslim in countries that are governed with religious law. They certainly haven't spoken to many Arab ex-Muslims about what THEY think of the religion.

I think Muslims need defending in America, because they get the shit kicked out of them in every possible way in our society, and in our media. Affleck's problem is that he equates that well-intentioned mission with actually understanding Islam, which he does not.

Reza Aslan is really fucking smart, but he also has his own agenda. That agenda is to explain away everything bad that is said about the religion, and he's brilliant at it. I don't trust a guy who has an answer for everything, especially when it is pretty contradictory to what I've known to be true.

The "draw Mohammad" lady from Texas is a GREAT example of something we need to reckon with as liberals/lefties/moderates/whatever. She's probably the biggest douche of all time, but if she is actually risking her life by drawing a picture (which she is) then we might want to consider how we feel about that. Cause that is sillier than Ben Affleck.

I do disagree with Hirsi about being wrong to call it bigotry, though. Calling all criticism of Islam bigotry is obviously ridiculous, but a lot of Americans MAIN problem with Islam is that they just hate Muslims. I just think we can back way from defending the religion itself and still defend the people who need defending.

Rallying that Islam is violent and must be stopped is bigotry, but to say that it is a peachy fucking sunny religion that is pleasant for everyone involved is just straight up naive.
Post Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:43 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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As far as I can tell Reza is willingly deaf to nuanced arguments. It's frustrating as all hell. And I think his willingness to misrepresent Sam harris's arguments is unforgivable. Especially if I am Sam Harris. Sam's patience is truly remarkable.

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org

These people are literally risking their lives for speaking out on Islam.
Post Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:43 am
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Dan Shay



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 11254
Location: MN
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My criticism of Ayaan Hirsi would be that she works for the same people that brought you The Bell Curve.

I would also be curious to see what Pat Buchanan type economic interests are behind the Quilliam Foundation.

The free speech argument to depicting the Prophet (BPUH) I do not agree with and I think in the United States there is some precedence behind it.

I think it falls under Harmony Korine's project Fight Harm category of disorderly conduct. It's lazy polemics of the highest order.
Post Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:49 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9288
Location: london
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man... way back when this place woulda had a 50 pager on those ISIS guys, woulda been cool to read. I find that gang of nuters truely surreal tho, well to do kids from fuckin marylebone in london going over there and taking heads off, when you can still listen to their mixtape talkin bout blazing spliffs on youtube. Whole Syria thing seems like such a mess no one wants to prod it, fuck knows
Post Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:12 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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And now we have... Podcasts.

Megan Phelps from that God hates fags church. It's relevant. Very interesting.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/leaving-the-church
Post Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:10 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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How many times did Michael say "and I don't really know sam's position on this".

Post Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:37 am
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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Aaaand liberals continue to fail us. Between right wing xenophobia and islam apologists/regressive leftists a reasonable person has nowhere to turn.
Post Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:15 pm
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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the ignorant facebook posts i read while this is going on makes me sick
Post Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:30 am
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Mr Jenkins



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 626
Location: Aotearoa
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Entering into discourse on this subject I still think you need to be specific about who it is you are against. If its ISIS/Boko Haram/Al Qaeda/Al Shabaab, the term can be Salafist/Takfari/Wahhabi. Using such a broad term as 'Islam' is the same as using the term 'Religion'. It's a semi-bigoted response. Don't forget the 100,000+ Muslims ISIL have killed. They are as pissed off as we all are.

To abridge Juan Cole's essay on terrorist attacks; they are part of a recruitment drive, the more we hate Muslims, the more volunteers they get joining their ranks.
Post Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:35 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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The differences to be specific about are jihadists (willing to die and kill for islam), islamists (spreading islam through democracy or other nonviolent means, analogous to the christian right) and moderate muslims.

Liberal muslims, women, gays, and secular people in the muslim world are who I'm mostly worried about. They are the ones we need to help. Through discourse. By challenging Islam. It is not islamophobic or bigoted to challenge islam specifically. Islamists hide behind false claims of islamophobia.

The west is not to blame for women being mutilated, gays being thrown off rooftops or atheist bloggers being beheaded. The west is not to blame for religious sectarianism. Religion is. And an argument is being made, and won I think, that Islam leads to these more than any other religion in modern times.

ETA: honestly, sam harris may be the only american public liberal talking with any sense at all about this. And maybe bill maher. BILL MAHER.

http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/still-sleepwalking-toward-armageddon

ETA 2.0: Of course I say that and then think of others speaking out on this. Sarah Haider is a gem who should be propped up by liberals.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/
Post Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:07 am
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Mr Jenkins



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Aotearoa
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I disagree with your 'specific differences', that's more umbrella terminology to enable perpetual war. Like the War on Drugs, The War on Terror, its a non-descriptive ambiguous 'enemy'.

You're worried about secular Muslims but want to challenge Islam, would you prefer they convert? would you like to have an Inquisition, we could try do what the Communists did to religion? What are you meaning by mutilated women? That's something Christian African countries do, its not just a Muslim thing (FYI Nigeria have outlawed it this year, majority Muslim country). The other atrocities you mentioned are all Wahhabi crimes against mankind, Muslims included. There is a precise, direct, actual enemy at the gate, and it is not Islam. It's Wahhabism. You want to stop them? rally your government to cease ties with Saudi Arabia. But you and I know our world is run by the Military Industrial Complex, Oil companies and Corporations, hence we are doomed.

What good can be gained from rallying against Islam as a whole except for public consent for the perpetual war on the Middle East. Look at the history of religion, we tried to get rid of it, never works out well.

“The oil in this region is the greatest single prize in all history” - Everette Lee DeGolyer’
Post Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:59 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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Muhammad Syed and Sarah Haider wrote:
The idea that FGM is concentrated solely in Africa is a huge misconception and bandied about by apologists with citations of an Africa-focused UNICEF report which showed high rates of FGM in African countries. Apologists have taken that to mean that it is *only* Africa that has an FGM problem — even though FGM rates have not been studied in most of the Middle East or South and East Asia. Is it an academically sound practice to take a lack of study as proof of the non-existence of the practice? Especially when there is record of FGM common in Asian countries like Indonesia (study) and Malaysia? It is also present in the Bohra Muslim community in India and Pakistan, as well as in the Kurdish community in Iraq — Are they to be discounted as “African problems” as well?

We do not yet have the large scale data to confirm the rates of FGM around the world, but we can safely assume that it is quite a bit more than just an “African problem.” It is very likely that FGM *did* originate in the Middle East or North Africa, but its extensive prevalence in Muslim-majority countries should give us pause. We are not attempting to paint FGM as only an Islamic problem but rather that Islam does bear some responsibility for its spread beyond the Middle East-North Africa region and for its modern prevalence.

So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice. Of the four major schools of thought in Sunni Islam, two mandate FGM while two merely recommend it. Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

Did read this?

Wahhabism is Islamic extremism. If they were christians we'd call it christian extremism. Just like when christians try to push their ideology we call them on their christian bullshit.

Muhammad Syed and Sarah Haider wrote:
We believe that Islam badly needs to be reformed, and it is only Muslims who can truly make it into a modern religion. But it is the likes of Reza Aslan who act as a deterrent to change by refusing to acknowledge real complications within the scripture and by actively promoting half-truths. Bigotry against Muslims is a real and pressing problem, but one can criticize the Islamic ideology without treating Muslims as themselves problematic or incapable of reform.

There are true Muslim reformists who are willing to call a spade a spade while working for the true betterment of their peoples — but their voices are drowned out by the noise of apologists who are all-too-often aided by the Western left. Those who accept distortions in order to hold on to a comforting dream-world where Islamic fundamentalism is merely an aberration are harming reform by encouraging apologists.


The problem of religion will/would/has persisted regardless of imperialism/colonialism and we have to be able to call it out.
Post Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:22 pm
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Mr Jenkins



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Aotearoa
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You know you are quoting the head of 'Ex-Muslims USA', who has no qualifications?

Also the 'scripture' argument is BS. Read the bible? it's got some abhorrent shit in there too.

Dr. Ashenafi Moges (actual qualifications).

One of the biggest misperception about FGM is that it is sanctioned by religion
be it Christianity or Islam. There is no possible connection between FGM and
religion as it predates both of them. There is nothing specific in the Bible or the
Koran which allows the mutilation of women. The Koran does not refer to FGM
but there is a Hadith (saying of the Prophet) which says “reduce but do not
destory. There has been somne controversy on this Hadith. The practice seems
to be very extensive among the Muslim population in the FGM practicing
countries and as such has aquired a religious dimension. However not all
Muslims practice FGM, ex. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. In countries with
Christian population like Ethiopia, Kenya, Egypt it is also practised by the
Christians.

Practitoners stick to their belief because they are not in the position to interpret
the Holy scriptures by themselves and have to depend on the religious leaders
who are very reserved to raise the issue. The religious leaders tend to link the
moral benefits attributed to FGM, such as purity, virginity, morality etc. With
religion. FGM is neither Islamic nor Christian.
Post Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:40 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1099
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Pfff. You didn't read anything I posted. I don't think you've read what you posted.

What are the qualifications and who has them?

Maybe Gad Saad? Is he qualified?

Do you think no one actually believes in their religion to the degree it makes them do deplorable shit? Where do you think religion comes from? Do you deny any link between belief and behavior? Do you think no muslims support FGM because of their faith? Why do you think saying the bible has bad shit in it too combats any of my points?

What do you think its like for a woman in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or Iran?
Post Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:26 am
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