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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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I'll see your Jordan over Ewing and raise you this:

Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:10 pm
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Captiv8



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Just so I actually contribute something meaningful to this thread, I don't see this as an issue of gender at the core. It's an issue of basic and very human insecurity. I think humankind subconsciously realizes it's own frailty, weakness, and impermanence in a system much bigger than itself. So what happens? In a world where most things are out of one's own control, you seek to assert dominate controllable things, or to make things controllable. Women, children, other races, people that are different than you, infidels, pancakes vs. waffles, and so on. If you want to find it, there is a reason to make anyone inferior to yourself and to thus dominate them. The issue is about a basic lack of respect, or at least a lack of equity in human relations.

I say this, which I realize is broad and sweeping, because I think it also happens to be the solution. If respect for others occurs at the fundamental level of their humanness, negativity on the basis of gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, and so forth go away. Is that something you consider plausible or even likely, DeadAwake? Or is this just a ideal expression of what you hope things could be? I'd like for everyone to get along too, but I think it's foolish to assume it can be done. So what do we do? We make strides over decades and centuries to make things a little better for people that are discriminated against. Will it ever be perfect? Fuck no. So those of us that are conscious of it just need to do our best in leading by example and trying to plant a seed for change. That bad boy isn't going to grow overnight, no way, no how.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:25 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
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Keep em closed, ladies.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:11 pm
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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T-Wrex wrote:
Some men like to dominate things. It's hormonal.


Thats what Hitlers mum said.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:59 pm
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Plum Puddin'



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Sometimes i like to pretend i'm a gargoyle.

It's not hormonal.

I just like it.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:06 pm
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Captiv8, i do agree with what you say about insecurity. 1st world society seems to be rooted to a great extent in trying to control everything. The flaw is in trying to control others when many cant even control ourselves (myself included). I believe control over ourselves is the only real control we can have.

As for respect at a fundamental level of humanness, i think it is plausible, such a respect would have to be crystallized through empathy. Which i think you are implying by fundamental level of humanness. The problem is in keeping a respect like this, making it real.

If this respect is purely or mostly a mental thing it can be flushed out by a deluge of emotion. When there is desire, such as a frenzy of lust rationality will cease to function or be very weak. So the respect has to be rooted in a stronger desire.

EDIT:
Actually i did think about respect in the article futuristxen posted. If this man were to see it from a different angle. He has the opportunity to cultivate a respect for these women even if they are dressing skimpily because i imagine they are doing it in part to appeal to the senses of men, attracting a partner. Of course i dont deny they are doing it for fun too, like costumes on Halloween. Women putting on make up and spending long time adjusting their appearance is something which should garner respect. As should a woman who goes out on a limb to satisfy her partners sexual desires.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:22 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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I also think objectification is an outgrowth of two things: the historical gender dynamic and materialism. I'd say the first was achieving some nice progress in terms of leveling out, but that progress has been challenged by a desire to accumulate. That desire is more or less ingrained into Western society for a number of reasons, but I think they have a lot to do with status and superficial desirability. Take, for instance, make-up. The very basis of this product is that it makes women look prettier or more attractive, though it doesn't actually make them more likable, intelligent, funny, or anything else of real worth. In other words, it sort of reduces their human qualities and makes them an object to be consumed, as it were, not appreciated, respected, or loved. They essentially become billboards for themselves, and it's usually false advertising.

You may say, "But women choose to wear make-up." Yes and no. I think some do genuinely choose to wear it, and they usually wear it tastefully so it isn't really apparent. But I think there is an impulse to wear make-up because women feel they have to or they won't be as pretty as the next woman. Again, I think this diminishes their humanness and replaces it with a temporary thing based on physicality. What this creates, I think, is a kind of harsh cycle were men become accustomed to see women not as such but as idealized versions that are, in the end, unsustainable. And women become accustomed to being viewed not as themselves but almost as caricatures. So it's doubly reinforcing. It becomes a normative expectation. This creates an inherent imbalance of power between genders where the woman as object must allure while the man as consumer must pursue and then consume.

A harsh judgment? I don't know. It's all kind of armchair philosophy straight off the cuff while I sipped coffee. But I do think relationships based on establishing mutual interests, genuine respect, and a commitment to bettering yourself and the other person are much healthier than what I described above. I think this is because the gender dynamic, as much as it can be, is removed from the equation. You are interacting with the person as such, not as any kind of societal prescription. For what is gender but a sociocultural construct that weaves its way into popular consciousness? It's all in the mind, but it's reified by the capitalist impulse of consumerism.
Post Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:57 am
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mancabbage



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I bashed one out reading this thread
Post Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:30 am
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Just this.

Post Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:58 am
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Captiv8 wrote:
I also think objectification is an outgrowth of two things: the historical gender dynamic and materialism. I'd say the first was achieving some nice progress in terms of leveling out, but that progress has been challenged by a desire to accumulate. That desire is more or less ingrained into Western society for a number of reasons, but I think they have a lot to do with status and superficial desirability. Take, for instance, make-up. The very basis of this product is that it makes women look prettier or more attractive, though it doesn't actually make them more likable, intelligent, funny, or anything else of real worth. In other words, it sort of reduces their human qualities and makes them an object to be consumed, as it were, not appreciated, respected, or loved. They essentially become billboards for themselves, and it's usually false advertising.

You may say, "But women choose to wear make-up." Yes and no. I think some do genuinely choose to wear it, and they usually wear it tastefully so it isn't really apparent. But I think there is an impulse to wear make-up because women feel they have to or they won't be as pretty as the next woman. Again, I think this diminishes their humanness and replaces it with a temporary thing based on physicality. What this creates, I think, is a kind of harsh cycle were men become accustomed to see women not as such but as idealized versions that are, in the end, unsustainable. And women become accustomed to being viewed not as themselves but almost as caricatures. So it's doubly reinforcing. It becomes a normative expectation. This creates an inherent imbalance of power between genders where the woman as object must allure while the man as consumer must pursue and then consume.

A harsh judgment? I don't know. It's all kind of armchair philosophy straight off the cuff while I sipped coffee. But I do think relationships based on establishing mutual interests, genuine respect, and a commitment to bettering yourself and the other person are much healthier than what I described above. I think this is because the gender dynamic, as much as it can be, is removed from the equation. You are interacting with the person as such, not as any kind of societal prescription. For what is gender but a sociocultural construct that weaves its way into popular consciousness? It's all in the mind, but it's reified by the capitalist impulse of consumerism.


I dig this perspective. Thanks for the post.

Another thing regarding materialism is the sense of ownership over someone else. Saying "MY girlfriend/wife" kind of shows this, like ive said though it isnt the words themselves, rather the intent, but i do believe the intent of ownership over a woman does permeate the mentality of man to an extent. Highly apparent in Muslim culture.

I can agree with most of what you say about make up/consumerism. Except that women go out on a limb to be attractive does make them more likable, from a certain perspective. I agree it is a fake way of making themselves appear more attractive, "false advertising" and that their is societal pressures to appear more attractive, when it isnt neccessary and that it most definitely does support their objectification, but only in a society where they are already objectified by a number of individuals.

You can say the same thing about tattoos, piercings and other ways of augmenting the image too.
Post Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:37 pm
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Captiv8



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There's a difference though between tattoos and piercings, which are gender neutral, and make-up, which, for the sake of argument, is not. Make-up is a totally superficial way of presenting yourself to the world. That's what bothers me about it subjectively. Objectively, it's troublesome because it has become an expectation, and because of fucked up shit like Bratz dolls. I don't have a daughter, but if I did I don't want her to go around thinking that she's only attractive if she's caked in mascara, blush, and lipstick, just like I don't want her to wear super-tight pants and low-cut tops because that's what the boys like. Hell no.

See, where I'm at now, in Glasgow, every night I see girls strolling around that look like slightly upscale prostitutes. We're talking short skirts or dresses, cleavage galore, hairsprayed coifs, and a clownish visage. This disgusts me, and I don't think it's the right way to go about having a good time out on the town. That's my opinion, I know, but I can't help what disturbs me, for there are greater implications here than one man's taste in ladies. It's that all of girls do it, and I can only assume it's because they feel pressure to do so, because they think that's what being attractive consists of, and/or because they think/know that's what men want. So it never changes. The shirts get impossibly shorter, the lipstick redder, the neckline stops just shy of nipple, and so forth. It's a hell of a way to go through life. I might feel differently if I thought that this was a genuine expression of the self, but I really don't think it is.

Aside from that, there's this make-up advert I see when I walk to class that says something to the effect of "Want to look pretty?" That's a fucked up message to dispense. If it's still up I'll see if I can get a snap of it tomorrow. The equating of beauty with falsity in so many hues and shades is really disconcerting to me. I'm not going to pretend that I'm so righteous eunuch who only does right by women all the time, or that I have some unique capacity to see only inner beauty, but I like to think I know that it's a more nuanced thing then what advertisers tell us.

And now that I'm ranting, what's up with adverts in general that use women to sell products? I don't get how this works. I mean, I know the principle behind it, but I don't know how this can actually be effective in convincing a consumer with half a brain to purchase X product. I'm really critical of commercials and print-ads as well, but I think the whole sex appeal thing is the least likely way to sell something. I will buy something because either A) I need it and am fairly sure it's the best bang for my buck on the market or B) because I am convinced to want something like Doritos or M & Ms or Disaronno. I look for utility, function, and practicality in my commercials, with a little bit of humor to make it memorable. But a pair a minxes with breast implants in red bikinis? C'mon. Either I want to drink Coors Light or I don't (and I don't, because it's a terrible beer). But I'm getting all tangential up in here. You get my drift.
Post Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:12 pm
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Okay, i think i understand where you are coming from. The whole make up and exposure of body parts things is way out of hand. These women need to be convinced that respecting themselves is far more attractive than a painted face, boobie sample peep shows, ass tight pants, chemical hair-dos and other immodest external appearance alterations. And if self-respect isn’t attractive to whomever they wish to enchant, than it isn’t worth it in the long run. If anything, women need to be discouraged from these alterations as a means of “being pretty”. Agreed on that. I can’t pretend to know what its like being a woman in these times

I think looking at it from the point-of-view of “If I had a daughter…” or “If that was my daughter (or female family member)…” is a very healthy and productive mind set, as long as reason and empathy are applied, in determining how oneself should view and treat women, or anyone for that matter. Props.

And yes, the advertising industry is a big, opportunistic, predatory culprit in this fine mess. Or certainly, it isn’t helping.


As far as sexual misconduct goes and how to go about remedying or moving in a better direction is the essence and purpose of this thread. As well as developing an understanding and coming to terms with it, which I feel was more so the prior focus.

This issue I would say seems to be one of the more difficult ones people face. Taking a direct approach is a gamble and may not even be possible.

I still think porn sites should reject content, which is indiscernible from rape or unquestionably hateful in nature. Parents are in a position where they may sow seeds to counteract this, by teaching female youngsters to be respectful of themselves and the boys to be respectful for women. Being so impressionable they no doubt soak up a lot of the garbage and can even lose the struggles with themselves.

Anyone passionate about this could go preaching these issues and to “respect women” to older people, but it could be futile or preaching to the choir. It could certainly even be counter-productive influencing others to go in a more harmful direction. Myself, I would need to hone my communication skills to even attempt it.

Women do hold more power than they think (or some know it, but don’t use it as well as they could) if they did refuse to be treated like flesh fashioned to satiate sexual desires. The article jakethesnake posted illustrates this too, in a specific instance. Good stuff.

Prostitution is another fickle matter. I know, I’m opening up a can of worm-holes with this one. Which as it is and as we are definitely has destructive tendencies. I understand that it is another “outlet” which is doing good in a sense too, I.e. may be reducing rape. I do know some women enjoy being prostitutes, getting lotsa money for little work, in some instances an ego-boost from it. Mainly in 1st world circumstances, id imagine.

Someone I used to know, either shown me or told me about a scientific experiment, which trained monkeys to trade currency for goods and services, supposedly proving prostitution is the oldest profession. This was after I was debating prostitution and the same themes im discussing in this thread, mind you.

If you interested in reading that:
http://www.zmescience.com/research/how-scientists-tught-monkeys-the-concept-of-money-not-long-after-the-first-prostitute-monkey-appeared/

Maybe there’s more to it than we’re seeing. Ive heard from someone that the way humans interact influences animals on an invisible, “psychic” level. Unorthodox, but I wont get into that, its just a (interesting, to me) speculation anyway. It could be that humans are barely evolved beyond engaging in monkey business Maybe I just don’t wanna face the truth. Anyway, back to what I was saying.

Prostitution is no doubt reinforcing the materialism/ownership mind set on a sub-conscious level at least. When I was younger, a doctor suggested i have sex with a prostitute to cure my bad self-esteem and anxiety. Which just further cemented my discontent for peoples attitudes towards sex and money. If there was more equity economically and in resources, women wouldn’t HAVE to resort to prostitution. An ideal I know.

Regarding some points presented earlier, I pose a question. Do people suck that much that they have to see unsavoury (to say the least) sexual acts enacted to not engage in them themselves? Do men really need the option of a prostitute as a safeguard against rape?

Not as many people as I thought agree that there is something really destructive and out of control about human sexuality as it is now. Or am I misreading ya’ll?
Post Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:58 pm
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DeadAwake



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DeadAwake wrote:
Not as many people as I thought agree that there is something really destructive and out of control about human sexuality as it is now. Or am I misreading ya’ll?


I forgot, i got an answer what was said about the severe rape and or torture cases being perpetrated by a loud minority and that how wide spread this is im probably exaggerating. And that the general consensus (a rather small one, admittedly) was people are getting slwoly better. I will try harder to project my views based on these 2 points. Apologies for that and the double postage.
Post Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:48 am
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Captiv8



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I saw a write-up in a newspaper someone had left on the train the other day about child porn. For obvious reasons, I'm reluctant to google for it. Anyway, it was about how these Scandinavian scientists, I wanna say they were either Swedish or Danish, were recommending that pedophiles or people with pedophilic tendencies receive computer-generated child porn. The basis was that it provided an outlet for them that didn't victimize anyone. There was even a quote, something like "You can't control your thoughts, but you can control your behavior."

I've said all that to say this: I don't agree with this, and I don't think legalized prostitution will effectively discourage rape. Or, for that matter, that rape-porn will have the same effect. There are two reasons for this. 1) I think these things are only stop-gaps, if you consider the addictive nature of pornography and illicit sexual behavior. Look at any addiction. One of the fundamental aspects is that it's a compulsion nearly or totally beyond the person's control. Secondly, the person develops a tolerance level that needs to be built higher and higher over time, if the addiction is left unchecked. That means riskier pornography, which might manifest itself in actual physical behavior against another person. Not good.

2) There is an assumption, often wrong, that rape is about the act of sex itself. It's about power and control, and even the thrill of doing something so morally bankrupt. The thrill for the rapist is that the victim doesn't want to have sex; thus the rapist can dominate them and get what they want. Obviously, that is not the case with prostitution, at least not from the john's perspective. What I think you'd find is that more people would have sex with prostitutes and rapes would occur at roughly the same rate.

So what's the solution to deviant sexual behavior? Castration? I can't conceive of any dialogue or educational program that will dissuade the vast majority of people with these tendencies. I think the only plausible solution is to create penalties so severe that a life-sentence would seem gracious in comparison. But then I think, Jesus Christ, do we really want to be a society that castrates and de-ovaries people? Is that what shit has come to? It's all very discouraging, frankly.
Post Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:21 am
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DeadAwake



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If there is a "root of all evil" the almighty power struggle would be a top contender for that title.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

"For women who are prostitutes, rape is every bit as traumatic as it is for women who are not sex workers. It may even be more painful, as the act reopens old wounds and buried memories of unbearable abuse. In fact, prostitutes demonstrate many of the same characteristics as soldiers returning from the battlefield.

In the 1990s, researchers Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan conducted a study on prostitution, violence against women and post traumatic stress disorder, interviewing 130 San Francisco prostitutes. Their findings indicate assault and rape are all too commonplace:

Eighty-two percent of these respondents reported having been physically assaulted since entering prostitution. Of those who had been physically assaulted, 55% had been assaulted by customers. Eighty-eight percent had been physically threatened while in prostitution, and 83% had been physically threatened with a weapon....Sixty-eight percent...reported having been raped since entering prostitution. Forty-eight percent had been raped more than five times. Forty-six percent of those who reported rapes stated that they had been raped by customers. "


I remember hearing at least 3 cases about AFL (Australian Football League) players committing gang rapes. In one case were 6 men would be involved against one victim, who was a mother who had been drugged. This is from not even watching news or reading news much and makes me think this is only the peak of the iceberg. I dug this up, from Adelaide too, my city. Didnt hear of the one in the nightclub here. Nine football players, 2 victims.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1072454.htm

Ive always hated football.

As for sentences, they are ridiculous. The judicial system spits in our faces. I have issues with jail and thats a whole another issue. But i am for taking people who are only going to fuck up more peoples lives out of society.
Post Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:11 am
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