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Prontoid



Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 1605
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Neuro wrote:
yeah but slug still wrote that himself (right?) , it was your(or whoevers) fault for misinterpreting it, same with the slick reference, what if not only it wasnt "true" but it wasnt even written by him

listen, i am still going to enjoy nas' music , and i really do understand the points that are being made , im just sayin OK so what if you found out slug didnt write your favorite verses/songs from your favorite album,or what if none of it was written by him at all , you wouldnt be let down by that? c'mon really?

what if sage francis didnt really write Best of times, you are telling me you wouldn't care ?

it seems different if the song he wrote wasn't about himself or about what you thought, compared to if he didnt even write it at all

then the next question is.... so how far does ghostwriting go? is it just stuff written by said artist then a ghostwriter comes in and alters it to make it better ,taking information and applying it to make it what it needs to be,or is it complete songs written top to bottom to give to a rapper to spit


The dude in the initial post also mentioned that he was upset and couldn't enjoy songs once he found out they weren't real which is why people are talking about that

And to be honest, I couldn't care less if I found out rapper X didn't write song B that I really enjoy...isn't going to taint my enjoyment of it one bit, it doesn't with other genre's so I don't see why hiphop is any different..

You know what, some guys are great writers and not so great rappers and vice versa, I'd prefer people to play to there strengths, whatever produces the best results...
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:12 pm
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7757
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Prontoid wrote:
Yer just read all these posts. The Infamous is probably one of my top 5 hiphop albums, I think 90% of it is bullsh1t but that is completely irrelevant to my enjoyment of it...Are you mad at Keith because Dr Doom/Octagon is not realistic? I love these albums....

.DOOM uses rhyming dictionary's, you mad at him for that?




yeah you see but they were still creative enough to write and make up those stories/ be those characters ,themselves. they still wrote it, they made it up, came up with those concepts , put it together as a piece, even if they had help with it they still made it,

i might be stretching it with this next one but what if say Picasso didnt really paint any of his paintings, it was really a bunch of random people he hired to paint what he wanted but still put it under his name and took credit for them
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm
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Prontoid



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I don't like that analogy because these guys are vocalists and are rapping lyrics, this isn't a discussion about Milli Vanilli
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:16 pm
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Prontoid



Joined: 07 Aug 2002
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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the worst thing is, if you really looked into it, I think you would be shocked to find out who wrote what and who didn't write what, who actually produced which beat and who took credit for scratches that were done by someone else...I wouldn't worry about that drama its just going to be a rabbit hole of dissapointment for you, just enjoy the music its better than way
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:18 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
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Yes, Neuro, I am actually saying that finding out someone else wrote a Sage Francis song you like wouldn't harm my appreciation for that song. That song doesn't mean to me what it means to you anyway. I am actually saying that finding out someone else wrote all of Slug's lyrics wouldn't harm my appreciation for Slug's music. I wouldn't even be upset if I found out that Slug had actually secretly written Fuck You Lucy about adult-onset lactose intolerance.

These things might surprise me as a fan of the music and as someone who has been naturally curious about the people who made that music. They might even cause me to revisit the music and listen to it with a slightly different ear. I would not, however, somehow lose my grip on the parts of that music that I liked before. This really is exactly what I'm saying, and I really do feel bad for you if you aren't comfortable following instructions when the label on the box reads "use as directed."

Blueprint said something interesting near the beginning of The Making of the Adventures of Counter-Culture, that Slug asked him before offering him feedback whether he (Blueprint) was in a place where he wanted feedback or not.

This says to me that, by your rationale, Slug has spent a lot of time putting other rappers in a position to someday let you down. The lines between ghostwriting and collaboration and constructive criticism are blurry, and I just don't think the delineations should be that important to someone who doesn't need an ASCAP membership.

More seriously: I think it's supremely arrogant to believe that we as fans understand at all the process which goes into making the art we love. I think it's supremely arrogant to think that we have a right to judge the people who make that art if the process turns out to have followed a different road than we thought it followed. I think it's foolish and shortsighted to think that it even directly benefits us to care.

When fireworks have gone off two inches behind my forehead, I don't spend one second or one drop of sweat wrinkling my brow and wondering whether or not the person who made that happen honored a pinky-swear not to misrepresent the steps which were required to light the fuse. Instead I sit back, blink, and feel grateful to have seen the show. Seriously, it begins and ends there for me. I actively work at not trying to pull back that curtain.

Maybe things work differently for you. Maybe they work differently for people who are secretly afraid that Slick Rick was reciting lyrics written by someone who had been buttfucked in prison before writing about the experience. But in my head, this process is filed away underneath a shorthand word I picked up as a fan of professional wrestling, kayfabe. I'm not going to attempt to explain it here, but I will say that as somebody who spent years having a relationship with entertainment that deliberately toyed with the line between truth and fiction, I learned that if my goal is to be entertained, I have certain responsibilities as a consumer with respect to the way I consume the products which entertain me, and that neglecting those responsibilities does a disservice to my enjoyment of the product.

EDIT: Needless to say, I don't drink much Shasta.
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:51 pm
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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maybe im just confused what ghostwriting is, im seeing it as someone taking credit for something they didnt do

if its a collab thats cool

if you need to hook with someone and bounce ideas back and fourth and you use some of those, cool

but having someone write something for you as you then you claiming its you that did that, not cool

i dunno


i just found this: this im cool with, this seems more of a collab though, not ghostwriting

DX: Given the content of your previous music, what was your involvement in Sly Fox? That really felt like a Stic.man and Nas song, I almost expected you to put a verse on it.

Stic.man: Nas came with that idea. He said, I want to get back at Fox for trying to put me out there like Im a murderer, and taking my lyrics out of context. He had the title for it and everything, and he was like, I want you to help me build on that shit. We just started throwing back ideas and phrases. He got a notepad and started writing down things Id say, things he would say. I think [M1] was in there for at least some part of that, in the general conversation. We didnt have a beat for it, we just had some ideas. I had this beat I was doing for a martial arts movie. Something just said, Play him that. I had some little [bass] rumbling low in there, and I was like, That sounds like some news shit a little bit, lets see if thats the vibe. I really didnt think it was, but I was just like, Let me see. When I played it, and he was just like, Thats it! Im like, What, that beat aint really ready! But if he likes it, let me see what I can do to make me feel like its on point. I called in the guitars to bring it more where I thought where it should be at.

So we get the notepad full of ideas about Fox. Im like, Searching like CBS, and I see B.S., track us down with GPS. He came with, Red Foxx, only fox I know. He would scribble it down, but not in a rap format, just dope little pieces. He goes in the booth after I get the beat all up, but what you hear on the song, he spit that. He had a certain method of what he wrote down and how he spit it. So Im like, How can I be productive? Let me think of a hook, so we can stay focused. I wanted to do a million songs, I didnt want to be stuck on one song forever. So I write the hook that you hear on the song, and when he comes out the booth, I go in the booth and lay the hook down. When I get halfway done with the hook in the booth, he stopped me like, Come out. Ima say that hook. I leave the pad in the booth, and he goes in there for one take and spits that shit hard. We work it out, keep working on the song and tweaking it, and thats how Sly Fox came about. It was co-written and a collaboration, but it was his idea and his genius.
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:14 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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To me, there's a difference between Biggie saying his mom has cancer in her breast as opposed to him rapping from the point of view of a character whose mother has cancer.

The prior has more urgency to me. I was just countering mark's point that it doesn't matter at all.

There is context that affects a work whether we want it to or not. If sage and some guy off the street wrote the same song it would mean something different because of what we know about each person and how the song relates to their body of work. Likewise a true story has a context and reality that differentiates it from a work of pure fiction and vice versa. Mixtures of the two have a different context as well.

I think it's ignorance as bliss to act like its all the same and the song itself is all that matters.
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:41 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
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I agree completely. Have I been unclear about the fact that there are ways in which I work to preserve that bliss?
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:47 pm
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tommi teardrop



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No I get it. I just think that bliss keeps you from understanding crucial details of the art you are taking in.
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:51 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
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That's a real possibility, but it certainly begs the question of whether I'm worse off than the lifelong Nas fan who feels like hip-hop died because Jay Electronica ghostwrote a 2-minute Nas track some years back. I guess we're both screwed.
Post Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:57 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Well yeah, this guy putting his faith in rap on Nas' auteur shoulders is ridiculous. Just as it's ridiculous to conclude that a true story is more important or more relevant than a work of fiction. My whole thing is that it's okay to deconstruct them differently or take different things from them based on the context they were created in.

I don't see it as killing any beauty or taking the wonder out of things. I see it as adding to the meaning and causing even more of a reaction. More levels. More thought. More feeling.
Post Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:10 am
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
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Again, I agree completely. My complaint is with the idea that some new discovery should be able to peel those layers away after you've already felt what you felt. To whatever extent artists believe that showing their work would detract from your initial reaction, they have a right--or perhaps even a professional obliation--to conceal it. This is doubly true if those fears are justified, as you suggest they should be.

Mystery is a required component of wonder, and thus artists who fail to meet these bullshit standards of authenticity but wish to create impactful art anyway are doing you and Neuro a favor when they successfully lie to you about the genesis of that work. The difference between our positions is that when the lie is revealed to me, I thank them for having been thoughtful enough to tell it. This is not the same thing as being incurious.
Post Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:29 am
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seandaley
passive aggressifist


Joined: 13 Jan 2003
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nas!!!
Post Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:03 am
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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I think the issues that I'm bringing up are really the most basic questions you can ask about a work. What perspective is it coming from? And just from a pure consumer standpoint, did the person whose name is on the cover actually write the words? It's not like I'm asking anyone to live up to any bullshit standards, especially with regard to fact vs fiction. I'm not trying to get into anyone's brain or pass judgement one way or the other.

I just want to know.

It's not ruining my day either way. I just think those very basic ?s are the least we can ask as listeners let alone consumers.
Post Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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hogwash




its all HOG WASH
Post Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:18 am
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