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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Location: http://askthedead.bandcamp.com
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Despite his unfortunate (although, thankfully, brief) reference to secret societies & occultists, Killer Mike nailed it in that radio interview. Good stuff.
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:58 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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Jesse wrote:
Limbs wrote:
What do you guys think of his tendency to use sensationalism and general kookiness outside of his music?

He clearly feels like he has something to say and wants to be a legitimate voice in society. Do you guys think he then has a responsibility to project a more reasonable attitude towards "important issues" in interviews and such? I'd like to hear him talk about some REAL solutions to our problems. Solutions everyone can rally around.

I refuse to believe he sincerely believes a lot of the nonsense he spews. And I am pretty sure there is a large section of his audience that could stand to hear some realrealtalk.

Or am I being too hard on him? I think he put this responsibility on himself. Or am I missing something?
I definitely think he's genuine, and I'm pretty sure at least as far as he's concerned, the solutions he recommends are real.

I don't agree with every statement he makes, but I appreciate that he's making them. It's challenging.


Why do you think he is being genuine? Just a hunch or did he say something specific?

I think he isn't very comfortable talking calmly and reasonably about serious issues. And that is ok. More than ok. But he boasts himself out of that.

He labels himself an activist. And I think he has given himself a responsibility to use his platform in active ways. He has opened himself up to harsher criticism.


Last edited by Limbs on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:08 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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Limbs wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Limbs wrote:
I refuse to believe he sincerely believes a lot of the nonsense he spews. And I am pretty sure there is a large section of his audience that could stand to hear some realrealtalk.

Or am I being too hard on him? I think he put this responsibility on himself. Or am I missing something?
I definitely think he's genuine, and I'm pretty sure at least as far as he's concerned, the solutions he recommends are real.

I don't agree with every statement he makes, but I appreciate that he's making them. It's challenging.


Why do you think he is being genuine? Just a hunch or did he say something specific?

I think he isn't very comfortable talking calmly and reasonably about serious issues. And that is ok. More than ok. But he boasts himself out of that.
It's a hunch, I guess, and it's based on my general impression of him over time... maybe I haven't heard the most outlandish stuff. Should I check this interview with Sway? Maybe it'll change my mind.
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:12 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 903
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I didn't post it for nuthin'.
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:16 pm
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mattarl



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 170
Location: north cack
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I've been bumping the instrumentals and every time I get to where Danny Brown's verse starts I can't help but say CHECK!
then I'm a little relieved it doesn't start.

waiting for that vinyl man...
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:47 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Location: privileged homeless
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Limbs wrote:
I didn't post it for nuthin'.
Oh okay wow, having listened to it, I've got to admit I'm surprised at the idea of anything he said even being remotely controversial to a thinking person. And I'm not trying to suggest you're not a thinking person - you're thinking about this right now - but my biases due to the info sources that I give credit to and the types of people who make the most sense when I'm trying to figure out what's going on lead me to hear everything he says in that particular interview as solid, sensible fact.

He does make the very brief detour into "secret societies" but as much as I have no patience for "conspiracy theories" coming from white privileged folks, I think that the whole concept of a secret society of invisible power brokers who run the economy and scratch one another's backs maps very efficiently onto the obvious power divide that openly exists in western culture, where the Illuminati is white men. The only part that doesn't jibe is that it isn't really a secret.

The right wing wacko nutjob conspiracy theory template is just a way for white people to believe in another, secret stratum of even whiter people who oppress them the way actual whiteness (not individual white people, but the institution) oppresses non-white people, and non-conforming white people.

I think he didn't even come close to saying anything not just normal plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face fact in that interview.
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:08 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 903
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I'm not hinging my criticism in that lone video. It's that he always seems to cop out with over simplified/fantastic ideas on complicated problems. And if he is going to boast as a truth speaker I think he should get truthier when he has the mic when he isn't rapping.

Maybe he hasn't figured it out yet. The spotlight, I mean. Maybe he has gotten real or organized an activist event or something of the like and has been too humble to use his platform to talk about it. I just don't think so.
Post Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:30 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Location: privileged homeless
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I think he's good at what he's doing, and he doesn't have to be doing more behind the scenes to validate his role as a voice. He doesn't even have to be right all the time - he expresses an underheard set of perspectives, very eloquently and evocatively.

I do not like that video for Big Beast though. I turned it off when the guts came out. I was with it until then.
Post Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:38 am
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Dr Sagacious



Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 1843
Location: Redford
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Limbs wrote:
I'm not hinging my criticism in that lone video. It's that he always seems to cop out with over simplified/fantastic ideas on complicated problems. And if he is going to boast as a truth speaker I think he should get truthier when he has the mic when he isn't rapping.

Maybe he hasn't figured it out yet. The spotlight, I mean. Maybe he has gotten real or organized an activist event or something of the like and has been too humble to use his platform to talk about it. I just don't think so.


I'm not sure how much more truthier you expect Killer Mike to get, man. He's already pretty much spot on, he's just using different words, essentially. He said "Super PAC's and people that have much more money than you are controlling this shit". Is this not a true statement?

It's ludicrous that you think he needs to do more than he's already doing. He's doing his part by preaching class consciousness and rejecting falsehoods from the State.

Nothing he is saying is really fantastical. I would disagree with his usage of terminology (i.e., occults and secret societies), but he's not off in Wonderland with this shit.
Post Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:47 am
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GrantherBirdly
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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maybe we should move this discussion to another thread since I don't want to distract from the dopeness that is this album, but that killer mike interview involves a number of highly questionable statements.

a sampling:

"We need to get secret societies and occultists out of the U.S. government."

"The government is run like a corporation," after which he provides an example of the government firing a worker who makes 35K a year even though purportedly the worker's job saves the government more than 35K a year. That doesn't sound like a very corporate move to make (since it entails a monetary loss, not gain). The story would have made sense as an illustration if they had cut the dude's salary to shit so that they could extract even bigger margins from him.

He claims the government is trying to dismantle education so as to fill prisons so as to turn bodies into commerce. I would think a rather more straightforward and beneficial way to turn bodies into commerce would be to let kids get an education and then voluntarily join the workforce.

Look, I'm no fan of our current federal government in particular, or of government in general. At best I think governance is a haphazard operation swayed by manifold interests (in ever-changing combinations) that on occasion does good and often fails to. I think the government is really bad when it comes to taking the long view. I think there's millions of other fair criticisms that can be leveled at our government. But I also think sloppy arguments that oversimplify problems and cast the political situation as a cabal of malevolent puppet-masters enacting a secret agenda on the polity is not only unhelpful, but probably harmful, because it forgives people from thinking through all the complexities of our nation's problems while tacitly congratulating them for believing they're seeing passed some non-existent veil of deception. I think outright, malicious and intentional deception plays a small role in politics. I think it's mostly bunglers, power grabbers, compromisers and ideologues battling it out in an ever-evoling clusterfuck.
Post Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:44 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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GrantherBirdly wrote:
"The government is run like a corporation," after which he provides an example of the government firing a worker who makes 35K a year even though purportedly the worker's job saves the government more than 35K a year. That doesn't sound like a very corporate move to make (since it entails a monetary loss, not gain). The story would have made sense as an illustration if they had cut the dude's salary to shit so that they could extract even bigger margins from him.
I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying their agenda is over time - keeping that dude's job to save that money in the next year makes sense if shutting schools down is something you wish to avoid.


Quote:

He claims the government is trying to dismantle education so as to fill prisons so as to turn bodies into commerce. I would think a rather more straightforward and beneficial way to turn bodies into commerce would be to let kids get an education and then voluntarily join the workforce.
The workforce is sharply tiered, homie. This is a racial divide. An educated person of colour does not want to do the things for a living that an incarcerated person of colour can be compelled to do for less than minimum wage.

This also applies to educated vs incarcerated white people but let's not kid ourselves.


Quote:

Look, I'm no fan of our current federal government in particular, or of government in general. At best I think governance is a haphazard operation swayed by manifold interests (in ever-changing combinations) that on occasion does good and often fails to. I think the government is really bad when it comes to taking the long view. I think there's millions of other fair criticisms that can be leveled at our government. But I also think sloppy arguments that oversimplify problems and cast the political situation as a cabal of malevolent puppet-masters enacting a secret agenda on the polity is not only unhelpful, but probably harmful, because it forgives people from thinking through all the complexities of our nation's problems while tacitly congratulating them for believing they're seeing passed some non-existent veil of deception. I think outright, malicious and intentional deception plays a small role in politics. I think it's mostly bunglers, power grabbers, compromisers and ideologues battling it out in an ever-evoling clusterfuck.
I agree with this for many many purposes, but I don't think the corporatized, white supremacist agendas are secret society shit, I think they're normalized cultural forces that achieve great weight and force in the system you describe. There are times when it's convenient to talk about it as a malevolent cabal of manipulative players, especially when rabble-rousing, but just because the truth of how it's implemented is more accurately described by what you're saying doesn't mean the truth of how it plays out isn't excellently described by what Mike is saying.
Post Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:33 am
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 903
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Maybe my standards for Mike have risen. Maybe I have a different take on the word 'activist' than he does.

There is nothing wrong with what he is doing. He is on point. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that I think he should take it to another level and start specifically talking about how people can get involved and make change. Maybe his isolationist slant is more pronounced in his view of the world than I think. But I think being an isolationist activist sounds like an oxymoron.

There have been ample opportunities for him to make a major statement about police curruption. He has to have the recourses to do SOMETHING other than make a over budgeted subpar music video.

He raises a lot of great questions in his music. I haven't seen him provide us many answers in his life.
Post Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:29 pm
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GrantherBirdly
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3145
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Jesse wrote:
GrantherBirdly wrote:
"The government is run like a corporation," after which he provides an example of the government firing a worker who makes 35K a year even though purportedly the worker's job saves the government more than 35K a year. That doesn't sound like a very corporate move to make (since it entails a monetary loss, not gain). The story would have made sense as an illustration if they had cut the dude's salary to shit so that they could extract even bigger margins from him.
I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying their agenda is over time - keeping that dude's job to save that money in the next year makes sense if shutting schools down is something you wish to avoid.


What would the government's motivation be to shut schools down? So as to privatize them or something?


Quote:


Quote:

He claims the government is trying to dismantle education so as to fill prisons so as to turn bodies into commerce. I would think a rather more straightforward and beneficial way to turn bodies into commerce would be to let kids get an education and then voluntarily join the workforce.
The workforce is sharply tiered, homie. This is a racial divide. An educated person of colour does not want to do the things for a living that an incarcerated person of colour can be compelled to do for less than minimum wage.



I'm not trying to play dumb, but it's unclear to me what things you're referring to here. Is the implication that in the not-too-distant future we're going to put the prison population to work doing some unsavory shit?


Quote:


Quote:

Look, I'm no fan of our current federal government in particular, or of government in general. At best I think governance is a haphazard operation swayed by manifold interests (in ever-changing combinations) that on occasion does good and often fails to. I think the government is really bad when it comes to taking the long view. I think there's millions of other fair criticisms that can be leveled at our government. But I also think sloppy arguments that oversimplify problems and cast the political situation as a cabal of malevolent puppet-masters enacting a secret agenda on the polity is not only unhelpful, but probably harmful, because it forgives people from thinking through all the complexities of our nation's problems while tacitly congratulating them for believing they're seeing passed some non-existent veil of deception. I think outright, malicious and intentional deception plays a small role in politics. I think it's mostly bunglers, power grabbers, compromisers and ideologues battling it out in an ever-evoling clusterfuck.
I agree with this for many many purposes, but I don't think the corporatized, white supremacist agendas are secret society shit, I think they're normalized cultural forces that achieve great weight and force in the system you describe. There are times when it's convenient to talk about it as a malevolent cabal of manipulative players, especially when rabble-rousing, but just because the truth of how it's implemented is more accurately described by what you're saying doesn't mean the truth of how it plays out isn't excellently described by what Mike is saying.


I hear what you're saying, that Mike is describing the longstanding structural outcomes of a whole lot of micro-activity, kind of like chaos on the quantum level still leads to stability on the macro level, but I'm still not sure I agree.
Post Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 pm
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GrantherBirdly
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3145
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In other more exciting news the New Yorker did a feature-length article on the "resurgence of political hip-hop" that leads with Killer Mike and El-P. Here's the abstract, I think you may need a subscription to read the whole thing:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2012/06/18/120618crmu_music_frerejones
Post Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:31 pm
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Dr Sagacious



Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 1843
Location: Redford
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GrantherBirdly wrote:
Jesse wrote:
GrantherBirdly wrote:
"The government is run like a corporation," after which he provides an example of the government firing a worker who makes 35K a year even though purportedly the worker's job saves the government more than 35K a year. That doesn't sound like a very corporate move to make (since it entails a monetary loss, not gain). The story would have made sense as an illustration if they had cut the dude's salary to shit so that they could extract even bigger margins from him.
I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying their agenda is over time - keeping that dude's job to save that money in the next year makes sense if shutting schools down is something you wish to avoid.


What would the government's motivation be to shut schools down? So as to privatize them or something?


Quote:


Quote:

He claims the government is trying to dismantle education so as to fill prisons so as to turn bodies into commerce. I would think a rather more straightforward and beneficial way to turn bodies into commerce would be to let kids get an education and then voluntarily join the workforce.
The workforce is sharply tiered, homie. This is a racial divide. An educated person of colour does not want to do the things for a living that an incarcerated person of colour can be compelled to do for less than minimum wage.



I'm not trying to play dumb, but it's unclear to me what things you're referring to here. Is the implication that in the not-too-distant future we're going to put the prison population to work doing some unsavory shit?


Quote:


Quote:

Look, I'm no fan of our current federal government in particular, or of government in general. At best I think governance is a haphazard operation swayed by manifold interests (in ever-changing combinations) that on occasion does good and often fails to. I think the government is really bad when it comes to taking the long view. I think there's millions of other fair criticisms that can be leveled at our government. But I also think sloppy arguments that oversimplify problems and cast the political situation as a cabal of malevolent puppet-masters enacting a secret agenda on the polity is not only unhelpful, but probably harmful, because it forgives people from thinking through all the complexities of our nation's problems while tacitly congratulating them for believing they're seeing passed some non-existent veil of deception. I think outright, malicious and intentional deception plays a small role in politics. I think it's mostly bunglers, power grabbers, compromisers and ideologues battling it out in an ever-evoling clusterfuck.
I agree with this for many many purposes, but I don't think the corporatized, white supremacist agendas are secret society shit, I think they're normalized cultural forces that achieve great weight and force in the system you describe. There are times when it's convenient to talk about it as a malevolent cabal of manipulative players, especially when rabble-rousing, but just because the truth of how it's implemented is more accurately described by what you're saying doesn't mean the truth of how it plays out isn't excellently described by what Mike is saying.


I hear what you're saying, that Mike is describing the longstanding structural outcomes of a whole lot of micro-activity, kind of like chaos on the quantum level still leads to stability on the macro level, but I'm still not sure I agree.


What possibly could me more unsavory than watching for the past fifty years the gradual ghettoization of metropolises (esp. Atlanta) coinciding with notorious CIA-funded Crack epidemics in said ghettos, education funding austerity/stagnation, and the ever-increasing Private Prison complex that is the result of it all? What is possibly more unsavory than being born into nothing or into the "gutter", having no chance at a decent education amongst other things, and reacting to such the only way they saw growing up? What's more unsavory than actually living in the prison system itself, where you are mainly just punished and not rehabilitated.

His implication is not that in the not-too-distant future we will be putting our prison population to work doing unsavory things: that sort of thing already happens, isn't new and will happen as long as the prison industry is allowed to grow. What his implication is that the State, the system, whatever you may want to call it, it does its best job to trap people into a cycle before they are even born, and it is pretty much impossible to break it. Killer Mike isn't saying harmful things at all. He's using terminology that you and other people disagree with, but his intention isn't wrong or harmful at all. At the very base of it, he is saying "The game is rigged against us (us as in POC/poor people)." I don't think you disagree with that sentiment, or at least, not completely. The game is rigged, that's for sure.

It seems like you are at a crossroads with what KM is saying on the basis that you don't like the words he is using, essentially. I'm not sure why it even matters to you how he describes what he thinks on the matter, especially since he's accurate in everything else he is saying dislodging the secret societies part. Iunno, homie. Just seems pointless to find issue in this particular matter.
Post Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:25 am
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