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Becoming a Freeman - Claiming Sovereignty
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JohnSchwan



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 667
Location: Baton Rouge, LA/MA
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Firefly's outlooks in this and the Libya thread, as well as his affinity for Immortal Technique have forever solidified him as paranoid conspiracy guy in my mind.
Post Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:14 pm
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Asterax



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1883
Location: Maine
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JohnSchwan wrote:
Firefly's outlooks in this and the Libya thread, as well as his affinity for Immortal Technique have forever solidified him as paranoid conspiracy guy in my mind.


Maybe, but Dan Shay has always been the original paranoid conspiracy guy to me.
Post Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:40 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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Law is some really complicated shit and if you don't know what you're talking about you will pay the price (as mlanifesto pointed out). I was just really disturbed by that article how it painted these guys as racist, etc. There is a huge PR campaign set out to demonize these guys so please take these accusations with a grain of salt. The "freemans" that I'm friends with are intelligent, hard working and kind people - definitely not crazy. haha There are lot of "freemans" who are crazy though, that's for sure. Some might just appear "crazy" because they're saying things that others don't understand.

Here's an example of a freeman who escaped the law (remember this video?)

Post Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:38 am
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JohnSchwan



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 667
Location: Baton Rouge, LA/MA
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firefly wrote:
Law is some really complicated shit and if you don't know what you're talking about you will pay the price (as mlanifesto pointed out). I was just really disturbed by that article how it painted these guys as racist, etc. There is a huge PR campaign set out to demonize these guys so please take these accusations with a grain of salt. The "freemans" that I'm friends with are intelligent, hard working and kind people - definitely not crazy. haha There are lot of "freemans" who are crazy though, that's for sure. Some might just appear "crazy" because they're saying things that others don't understand.

Here's an example of a freeman who escaped the law (remember this video?)




Probably shouldn't have cited this guy for non-craziness.
Post Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:00 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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I wasn't.
Post Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:19 pm
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Self Conscious



Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 322
Location: Sleeping in a box car dreaming of lost starts
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JohnSchwan wrote:
Firefly's outlooks in this and the Libya thread, as well as his affinity for Immortal Technique have forever solidified him as paranoid conspiracy guy in my mind.


he is that guy
Post Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:37 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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I wish. That guy is fucking bad ass! ;)
Post Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:15 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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5 Basic problems of our society by Robert Menard:

1 - Our relationship with our public servants is upside down.
2 - Our government is not representing us properly.
3 - The courts allow fictions.
4 - Peace Officers are not peaceful.
5 - Our money comes with interest attached.

The answers:

‎1- They are supposed to be public servants, but they act like they are masters of the public. The commands, demands, regulation of innocuous activities, abdication of duty to protect our rights, all this adds up to a vision of us being their children, or wards. We must learn to reject their demands and commands, and give them our own. We must shift from being a ward of the servant, to a Master of the Servant.

‎2- Our form of government is simply archaic, unresponsive, easily hijacked, and is no longer serving the people, but the corporations and fictions which have hijacked it. For all intents and purposes, it is a private entity providing public services. It is representative in the barest sense of the word, and even then, many would argue not at all.

‎3- Courts allow legal fictions, imaginary constructs called corporations to be heard. They are soulless, big, rich, and solely profit driven. Fiction is not truth, and without truth you will never have justice.

4- Peace officers, we have all seen, seem to evolving into a group of revenue collecting, conflict generating, policy enforcing thug caste with some form of almost religious belief system that causes them to think that we have to be protected from exercising our rights, and us doing what we are told is best for us. They routinely employ unlawful threats of violence or actual violence to achieve compliance with what are essentially the private policies of an imaginary entity. They operate with ignorance of the limits of their lawful authority, and say things like 'take it up with the judge', serving you papers that creates conflict and business for the court.

5- Our money is borrowed into existence, with interest attached. It is a tool of exchange, and when it must be borrowed into existence, the lender has the power to limit our ability to engage in exchange, and to create an artificial poverty. Unfortunately, we look at it not as an indication of how much trade has happened, or how much we have built, but as how much debt we can carry, and pay back. Thus our infrastructure and maintenance, and social services and education level of the populace is limited by the money supply, instead of the money supply being determined by what we have built and maintained.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:12 am
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JohnSchwan



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 667
Location: Baton Rouge, LA/MA
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Bear with me, I'm on my phone but what are the real concepts around this Freeman thing? Does this mean they're eliminating their ties to a government they don't see fit to prosecute them? It seems that when you refuse to recognize the law of the land that you're eliminating yourself from that law's protection, right? So if someone decided to just go rob one of these guys, could the law by said person's own logic and beliefs refuse to prosecute the accused? If you don't want to recognize the system then why should they reap the benefits of the system?

Imagine if these people put all of their effort into actually changing the law for the better.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:03 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5453
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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i think they claim to be protected by "common law" which is pretty much whatever they want it to be.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:24 am
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duck_shoe



Joined: 15 Sep 2002
Posts: 1362
Location: Right here, fool.
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Is this asshole a fair representation of the "freeman" movement?

I think this is the only time I've ever watched a confrontation with a cop and come away thinking the other guy was the asshole.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:23 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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JohnSchwan wrote:
So if someone decided to just go rob one of these guys, could the law by said person's own logic and beliefs refuse to prosecute the accused? If you don't want to recognize the system then why should they reap the benefits of the system?


From what I understand, no. There aren't many people who have actually separated themselves from this society. Those who have, have no drivers license, social security or medicare card (for countries like Canada). Which would make sense.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:36 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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duck_shoe wrote:


Is this asshole a fair representation of the "freeman" movement?

I think this is the only time I've ever watched a confrontation with a cop and come away thinking the other guy was the asshole.


Yeah, this guy is definitely a douche. Speeding is endangering other travelers on the road so he is on the wrong side of the law in my opinion. He also sounds drunk so the cop is right in asking him to take a breathalizer.

Just like any movement there are going to be some douches and some good folks. This guy is swearing and smoking in the cops face, right there he is acting in dishonour.

The real point behind all of this is not being taken advantage of by law enforcers NOT taking advantage of society. Naturally there will be people who act selfishly and people who don't know what they're talking about. There aren't enough of the good ones represented in the media.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:45 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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Here's an interesting doc about a man who is a real sovereign. Explains things a lot better then I can.



Skip to 49:00 to hear his story about his "freeman" experience in court. It's quite interesting.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:16 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1972
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
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This stuff is all very similar to the way Scientologists run their little sideshow. Produce a series of axioms, build a complex, structured set of logical ideas using those axioms as the foundation, and then attempt to replace existing social and legal structures with the ones built from your axioms.

As a means of debate it can be confusing to deal with because the proper place to challenge those arguments is on the founding axioms themselves, rather than on the arguments which emerge from them.

The basic axiom of the sovereign movement is that there exists an on-paper entity for each actual person, that most law and government power only applies to this on-paper entity, and that the power of government depends on individuals mistakenly conflating their paper entities with themselves.

Even if that axiomatic claim of the sovereign citizens were true, we shouldn't want the system to work that way, and we shouldn't want people to suddenly start refusing to play along with the fiction that they are equivalent with their paper identities. We should want our real physical selves to be subject to a form of government generally like the version of the United States government described in primary school civics textbooks. It's a beautiful, empowering idea. It lets us do important and useful things like have roads and schools and a uniform system of weights and measures. The version sovereign citizens are saying we should believe instead is much more complex and much less useful to anyone.

Buying into the axiom and paying detailed attention to the arguments that emerge from it is a waste of time. It's just a jive language, no different than the system Scientology teaches its customer-parishioners, no different than the wearying, endless restating of basic ideas about how the world works into subtly different vocabulary that pimps use to turn out the women in their stables. Unless looking at the world in those altered terms produces a worthwhile and desirable result, what's the point in using them?

If our government really works the way these people insist it does, that's terrible, and we should immediately set out to fix it. It would be like a trap-door out of a system of government which for the most part works pretty well into an atrophied precursor system that can't be trusted to do anything useful at all.
Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:53 pm
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