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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
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Jesse Custer wrote:
Arguable, I guess..

I'm not looking to prove it definitively though and I don't really see any point in trying to do so. That was just an aside really.


That album never got higher than number 3 on the charts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)#Sales_chart_positions_and_certifications

So yeah...it's extremely arguable.

Kanye's lowest position on the billboard charts is for this first album which was...number 2. Everything else has been number one. So I'd say definitively he's more popular. Probably has more twitter followers too.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:05 am
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Charlie Foxtrot



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futuristxen wrote:
spagucci-one wrote:
Kanye= new Beatles? You must be tripping on LSD. I think there are few bands that we will be talking about in 40 years. I would say Red Hot Chili Peppers and Green Day are among those few.


Kanye West has more hits on his last two albums than Green Day had in their whole career. And RHCP have never been that popular. In fact, neither of those two bands have ever been the most popular act in music. At any point.


Dookie sold ten million copies and American idiot sold five million. Californication also sold five million. Kanye West's best selling albums were his first two which sold three million.

The thing about The Beatles is no one ever much cared about their lyrics. This is good because some of them were rather awful, ranging from the sexism of "Run for Your Life" to the meaningless jabber of pretty much all of the white album. Kanye West, though, is a rapper, and lyrics in rap are valued more so than in any other genre, even punk. The production on BDTF was great. Unfortunately it's filled with Kanye saying things like this:

She find pictures in my email
I sent this girl a picture of my dick.
I don't know what it is with females
But I'm not too good with that shit.

Nowadays I just wish Kanye didn't rap, so someone else could use the beats.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:07 am
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futuristxen



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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
spagucci-one wrote:
Kanye= new Beatles? You must be tripping on LSD. I think there are few bands that we will be talking about in 40 years. I would say Red Hot Chili Peppers and Green Day are among those few.


Kanye West has more hits on his last two albums than Green Day had in their whole career. And RHCP have never been that popular. In fact, neither of those two bands have ever been the most popular act in music. At any point.


Dookie sold ten million copies and American idiot sold five million. Californication also sold five million. Kanye West's best selling albums were his first two which sold three million.



I don't think overall sales is a good way to compare cross-generationally, because post napster, people stopped buying music. It's far more instructive to use the actual charts and compare them to how everyone else was selling.

Just because you hate Kanye West, doesn't mean he hasn't been wildly popular.

I was looking at the chart all-time rankings, and Jay-Z actually has the second most number ones all-time behind the Beatles. So maybe it's Jay-Z. Though I don't know what his crazy experimental album would be.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:18 am
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Charlie Foxtrot



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futuristxen wrote:
Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
spagucci-one wrote:
Kanye= new Beatles? You must be tripping on LSD. I think there are few bands that we will be talking about in 40 years. I would say Red Hot Chili Peppers and Green Day are among those few.


Kanye West has more hits on his last two albums than Green Day had in their whole career. And RHCP have never been that popular. In fact, neither of those two bands have ever been the most popular act in music. At any point.


Dookie sold ten million copies and American idiot sold five million. Californication also sold five million. Kanye West's best selling albums were his first two which sold three million.



I don't think overall sales is a good way to compare cross-generationally, because post napster, people stopped buying music. It's far more instructive to use the actual charts and compare them to how everyone else was selling.

Just because you hate Kanye West, doesn't mean he hasn't been wildly popular.

I was looking at the chart all-time rankings, and Jay-Z actually has the second most number ones all-time behind the Beatles. So maybe it's Jay-Z. Though I don't know what his crazy experimental album would be.


American Idiot was released in 2004, the same year as Kanye's first album. Speakerboxxx/The Love Below came out the year before and sold over five million copies and it was a double album.

Also, no one will ever be The Beatles because no one releases music that way. They released two albums a year in addition to non-album singles. And they did this for seven years. At one point they occupied all five top spots of the hot 100 chart.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:26 am
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Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
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futuristxen wrote:
Jesse Custer wrote:
Arguable, I guess..

I'm not looking to prove it definitively though and I don't really see any point in trying to do so. That was just an aside really.


That album never got higher than number 3 on the charts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)#Sales_chart_positions_and_certifications

So yeah...it's extremely arguable.

Kanye's lowest position on the billboard charts is for this first album which was...number 2. Everything else has been number one. So I'd say definitively he's more popular. Probably has more twitter followers too.


I'm kinda surprised at some of the Chilli Peppers' numbers actually. Because they were massive globally at the time.. Huge World Tours, really popular in Europe, etc. I think that stuff counts, too.

He maybe the talk of the town locally for you guys, but I think there's still loads of people over here who would have no idea who Kanye is. Or even if they know who he is don't really know much about his music. Especially the last album.

Anyway, back to the main question in that post which is more relevant to this discussion (as I'm in no way suggesting the Chilli Peppers fit the bill for the OP's question), which was...

What was experimental or groundbreaking about the last Kanye album? I don't see it.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:33 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Jesse Custer wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
Jesse Custer wrote:
Arguable, I guess..

I'm not looking to prove it definitively though and I don't really see any point in trying to do so. That was just an aside really.


That album never got higher than number 3 on the charts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)#Sales_chart_positions_and_certifications

So yeah...it's extremely arguable.

Kanye's lowest position on the billboard charts is for this first album which was...number 2. Everything else has been number one. So I'd say definitively he's more popular. Probably has more twitter followers too.


I'm kinda surprised at some of the Chilli Peppers' numbers actually. Because they were massive globally at the time.. Huge World Tours, really popular in Europe, etc. I think that stuff counts, too.



A lot of acts were at that level back then. And europe doesn't really count. People only say they are big in europe or japan when they are small here in the States.


Quote:


He maybe the talk of the town locally for you guys, but I think there's still loads of people over here who would have no idea who Kanye is. Or even if they know who he is don't really know much about his music. Especially the last album.



Who honestly knows what you people listen to. Your number one album for 2010 was by some group called "Take That".


Quote:


What was experimental or groundbreaking about the last Kanye album? I don't see it.


What was experimental about Sgt. Pepper? Shit's always relative to some album Bjork made entirely out of soup can lids.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:07 am
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Limbs



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The thing that I don't like about Kanye besides his personality, beats and rhymes is that when he does get around to dropping a poignant, insightful and/or consciously dope line he immediately follows it up by dropping a ridiculous meathead sexual innuendo.

Like he can't allow himself to be good. He has a fear of true success.

The Beatles are a lot of fun to harmonize with. Just like the Chili Peppers...
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:51 am
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Jesse Custer



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futuristxen wrote:

Quote:


What was experimental or groundbreaking about the last Kanye album? I don't see it.


What was experimental about Sgt. Pepper? Shit's always relative to some album Bjork made entirely out of soup can lids.


No, really.. relative to anything with his own genre currently being released. How was it different? It brought a lot of current elements together well in a tight package for a really polished pop album, but what did it do that was new?

(no point continuing with the other thread of this discussion since your last response was pretty much an admission that you were just pulling statements out of your arse with no basis)
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:53 am
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3flip



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futuristxen wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Kanye is not good. Somebody mentioned Outkast. They may not have had any huge songs recently but they're definitely more Beatles-esque in my eyes.


You can't be "Beatles-like" if you have no fans. Outkast has never been beatles level popular. Average person knows who Kanye West is and has an opinion on him. Average person doesn't know who Outkast are, and of the percentage who know who Outkast are, I bet 25 percent of them couldn't tell you the names of the two rappers IN Outkast, or the names of more than two of their songs.

If we're just going to pick bands or rappers we like and say they are like the Beatles because we like them and think they are good--then Sage Francis is John Lennon. /end thread


this is incorrect. Everyone knows Outkast, they are completely mainstream. At the height of their popularity I'm pretty sure they had the number 1 and 2 song at the same time (or something close to it) "Hey Ya" and "The Way You Move." Moreover, they've had top ten hits from all of their records.

I like the Outkast comparison more for quality purposes. Kanye, though innovative as he is trying to be, is mediocre. Outkast is innovative without trying. Kanye will never make a love below. That record is top ten albums of all time in my book.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:16 am
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3flip



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Jesse Custer wrote:
Get the fuck out with this Kanye nonsense.

In what way was his last album groundbreaking or experimental? He has done some interesting shit with the videos but there's nothing wildly original about the music.

It is a good pop record though.





I'm going to play the devil's advocate here... he did do a 4 min (guessing) guitar solo with his voice at the end of a song. The leading single no less.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:20 am
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tommi teardrop



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yeah and that song Runaway, the lead single, also had the words jerkoff, douchebag and asshole in the chorus. And it started with the same note repeating 15 times.

Then you have Nicki Minaj's spoken intro. There's how the intro, chorus and outro of Dark Fantasy stand in contrast to the hip-hoppy beat of the verses. Power, is unlike any rap song I've ever heard. There's the orchestral opening to All of the Lights. There's Nicki's verse on Monster. There's Runaways (already mentioned). There's Kanye saying "No more drugs for me, pussy and religion is all I need," to iron man's melody. There's the screwed and panned parts on blame game. There's Chris Rock's hilarious skit. and it all ends with a weird militant dance song and a Gil Scott Heron outro.

And then there is the video that accompanies the entire album.

I mean it's not as experimental as a Themselves record, but for a mainstream rap CD its pretty wild.

I think we can at least agree that 808s was experimental, no?

The Beatles also had their imma let you finish moment with the whole bigger than jesus thing.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:40 am
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Flossin



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futuristxen wrote:

A lot of acts were at that level back then. And europe doesn't really count. People only say they are big in europe or japan when they are small here in the States.



Why doesn't it count? The Beatles were a global sensation. This thread is about who's the next Beatles. Kanye might be big in the US but he's just another rapper (if even that) for most of the world. People of all ages, all around the world probably knew (and still do) who the Beatles were. Kanye can't even compare to them, success-wise. Average person in the world doesn't give a shit about Kanye and most people above the age of 30 or something around the world probably don't even know who he is.

And yeah, Outkast is way more famous worldwide than Kanye is. No Kanye West song ever got the same amount of radio/tv play that "Ms. Jackson" or "Hey Ya" got. Not even close. I also think they're more accomplished as artists.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:52 am
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Mark in Minnesota



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I picked Outkast for the comparison based on several related criteria:
1. Other than an Usher album, the Speakerboxxx/The Love Below double-album the most recently released album to have been certified diamond (10M units sold) by the RIAA.
2. That album was a significant change in sound and production process from their previous efforts, and spoke specifically to artistic experimentation.
3. Outkast had a number of other platinum albums and high-charting singles leading up to that album.

So:
- It's a major label artist, with a history of strong revenue.
- It's a progression from one style of music to an extremely different style of music.
- The change in style was warmly accepted by fans.

On an entirely subjective logarithmic scale where you put the transition from Beatlemania to the final albums where the number is measuring both commercial success (fan acceptance) over the entire period and the scope of change seen during that period:
9.0 - The Beatles, from the start of Beatlemania through their breakup.
8.0 - Bob Dylan, from the start of his career through the transition to electric and eventually into the gospel and then back; his lifetime sales warrant the big number but I don't rate this one any higher because the gospel chapter of his career was not well-received by mainstream audiences and is considered historically to be a professional cul-de-sac.
6.5 - Garth Brooks and his attempt at a transition out of the country music style using his "Chris Gaines" persona. He has huge sales over his career and was allowed to produce the Gaines album because of that; the album went platinum and resulted in a major chart hit during its debut year, but did not result in a sustained change in his sound, or significant artistic and financial risks for either him or his label.
5.0 - Guns N' Roses, which essentially broke up and/or imploded because of Axl Rose's inability to actually implement the changes he was looking for--and eventually resulted in an album that reads more as a weird footnote than as an evolutionary step in the art.
3.5 - Rage Against the Machine, which had one fairly consistent sound throughout their careers, reunited a decade later to play the same exact music without writing anything new, and where follow-up projects from the band-members either never materialized or were not significant departures from their previous styles--but where those band members at least moved in different directions from one another following the break-up.
2.0 - Metallica replacing Dave Mustaine with Kirk Hammett.

... I'd probably rate what happened with Outkast somewhere between a 7.6 and an 8.2--depending on whether any future albums appear and are commercially successful in the future, and on whether those albums are considered to be an ongoing departure from the duo's origins or a return to prior form. Remember, this is an order of magnitude progression, so saying "Outkast is one tenth of a Beatles at best, but that's still pretty big compared to the surrounding landscape" is probably about right.

The Beastie Boys probably warrant something like a 7.0, which is also around where I'd rate Miles Davis. I'd personally probably only rate Kanye around a 6.0 on this scale, largely because his change in style happened as he broke out as a major star, rather than happening well after he broke out as a major star.

Jay-Z is an interesting counter-example. His music didn't really change that much but his label gave him a different kind of freedom by making him an executive at Def Jam. Here the label had an appetite to take a risk on Jay-Z's artistic vision, but Jay-Z preferred to exercise that risk by signing other artists (including Kanye West)) rather than by radically pushing the limits on his own recording style.
Post Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:29 pm
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Bring that Beat Back



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not 100% but i'm pretty sure these are the next Beatles

Post Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:41 pm
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GrantherBirdly
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Mark in Minnesota wrote:
I picked Outkast for the comparison based on several related criteria:
1. Other than an Usher album, the Speakerboxxx/The Love Below double-album the most recently released album to have been certified diamond (10M units sold) by the RIAA.
2. That album was a significant change in sound and production process from their previous efforts, and spoke specifically to artistic experimentation.
3. Outkast had a number of other platinum albums and high-charting singles leading up to that album.

So:
- It's a major label artist, with a history of strong revenue.
- It's a progression from one style of music to an extremely different style of music.
- The change in style was warmly accepted by fans.

On an entirely subjective logarithmic scale where you put the transition from Beatlemania to the final albums where the number is measuring both commercial success (fan acceptance) over the entire period and the scope of change seen during that period:
9.0 - The Beatles, from the start of Beatlemania through their breakup.
8.0 - Bob Dylan, from the start of his career through the transition to electric and eventually into the gospel and then back; his lifetime sales warrant the big number but I don't rate this one any higher because the gospel chapter of his career was not well-received by mainstream audiences and is considered historically to be a professional cul-de-sac.
6.5 - Garth Brooks and his attempt at a transition out of the country music style using his "Chris Gaines" persona. He has huge sales over his career and was allowed to produce the Gaines album because of that; the album went platinum and resulted in a major chart hit during its debut year, but did not result in a sustained change in his sound, or significant artistic and financial risks for either him or his label.
5.0 - Guns N' Roses, which essentially broke up and/or imploded because of Axl Rose's inability to actually implement the changes he was looking for--and eventually resulted in an album that reads more as a weird footnote than as an evolutionary step in the art.
3.5 - Rage Against the Machine, which had one fairly consistent sound throughout their careers, reunited a decade later to play the same exact music without writing anything new, and where follow-up projects from the band-members either never materialized or were not significant departures from their previous styles--but where those band members at least moved in different directions from one another following the break-up.
2.0 - Metallica replacing Dave Mustaine with Kirk Hammett.

... I'd probably rate what happened with Outkast somewhere between a 7.6 and an 8.2--depending on whether any future albums appear and are commercially successful in the future, and on whether those albums are considered to be an ongoing departure from the duo's origins or a return to prior form. Remember, this is an order of magnitude progression, so saying "Outkast is one tenth of a Beatles at best, but that's still pretty big compared to the surrounding landscape" is probably about right.

The Beastie Boys probably warrant something like a 7.0, which is also around where I'd rate Miles Davis. I'd personally probably only rate Kanye around a 6.0 on this scale, largely because his change in style happened as he broke out as a major star, rather than happening well after he broke out as a major star.

Jay-Z is an interesting counter-example. His music didn't really change that much but his label gave him a different kind of freedom by making him an executive at Def Jam. Here the label had an appetite to take a risk on Jay-Z's artistic vision, but Jay-Z preferred to exercise that risk by signing other artists (including Kanye West)) rather than by radically pushing the limits on his own recording style.


I'm pretty much with you on the outkast thing, but it seems wrong to draw too strong a line at the speakerboxx / love below album. I feel like every album of theirs brought some new shit to the table in terms of envelope pushing sound.
Post Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:27 pm
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