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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Las Vegas
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Hellen Earth wrote:
the one thing about this nebulous dissent that has no clearly defined demands is that it becomes ripe for hijacking.
"Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power—in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions—is destroying financial security for everyone else?"
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:27 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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Kinda disappointing to see the conservative tendencies coming up here.

For the last few years people rose up and took over the street in Spain, Mexico, Greece, London, Egypt, etc.

What do you want us to do? Vote? Ha. We tried that. Protest? We tried that.

There isn't a clear strategy because the left has gotten the shit kicked out of it for so long that we've been resigned to symbolic marches, multicultural festivals, rock the vote nonsense, and green capitalism. We know it ain't working but we don't know what to do because we've never been at this point in history.

Shit ain't right. We know that. I think its racism. The guy on my left thinks its capitalism. The guy on my right thinks its the two party system. The girl next to him thinks its marriage inequality. The lady next to her thinks marriage is an oppressive institution.

Its all good. though. At least someone is having a conversation. The newest social movements aren't about single issues, clear tactics, or pre-determined outcomes. Sure, multiple strategies need to be discussed. immediate policy changes, like an end to the death penalty, for example, should be worked on, but this is hyper-reality we're dealing with. This is post-modern capitalism, neoliberal war, where we have no context or frame of reference for how poor we are. I have two computers and running water, I'm a college grad, unemployed, alcoholic, in the middle of a struggle for dignity.

If The struggle was only about frustrated unemployed grads, it would be easier to kill the movement. If it was for indigenous rights, the state could crush the movement because the only people involved would be the indigenous solidarity community. The system affects so many of us in different ways, to varying degrees of violence, that it makes it difficult to see ourselves as a mutual struggle.

I want to connect with and learn from others in the struggle. I damn sure don't want to be reminded by some professional, NGO liberal activist to "stay on message."

Perhaps this won't accomplish anything, except a few moments of temporary autonomy, or illusory empowerment. At least someone had the conversation. I know I'm not doing enough, and I have constructive critical analyses to offer the "occupations" (is it really an occupation if it is permitted, doesn't disrupt business as usual?). But hey, I'm happy to see USA people makes some sort of effort in the global movement for new democratic spaces.

My message is, Ya Basta!

Not sure if this has been posted but,
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:36 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21596
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Tommi,

You're being punished because you can't get what you want in a way that you wish to get it? That's punishment? Tell me how you're being punished so I can show at least a tiny bit of sympathy.

I don't think the government should be giving banks any money. THAT I have a problem with. And they should definitely be held accountable for their failures. That, of course, would fuck a lot of people over in the long run as well.

But no, I don't believe that the masses deserve "whatever they get." I know a lot of people who are poorer than anyone who ever lost a house, and I think they deserve our support. I believe there are many cases where a helping hand is necessary. But I don't believe that just ANYONE should get what they want just because there's a company or an institution that has the means to give it to them. Just because...because they want it! And you are a prime example of that to me.

I'm not insensitive to this issue of people losing homes. I know people who lost their houses and their retirement funds due to the bubble burst. In fact, on a very personal note, when my dad passed away he left many people with the burden of bearing his debt. He made a lot of horrible financial decisions in his life, and he was (I believe) legitimately naive. He had more heart than brain. I loved that heart, but the debt he left us with is not something the general public should have to pay for.

Now, I don't blame people for actually BEING naive, especially if they are unfairly or illegally taken advantage of. But, for the most, that's not what I see in this country. I see a lot of people who knowingly take gambles, they spend more than they can afford because they're used to the luxury of ownership and liesure time. Then, when they ultimately lose on the gamble and it's time to pay the piper, they cry foul and demand something that's not rightfully theirs to be given to them.

I sound "conservative as fuck" because you don't like accepting responsibility for the actions you took? I mean...that's how this has broken down. You played the game but you dislike the outcome of the gamble you made...and now you want a do-over. Just because. And now we'll take it to the streets because a bunch of people deserve do-overs, right?

I'm certainly not here to protect rich/govt/bank swindlers. The swindlers should be held accountable and punished. Punished in a real way, not in the fake way that you say you are being punished. Also, the people who were swindled should be defended and fought for. I will fight for them just as I would fight for anyone of principle and honor. I'm having a tough time finding those qualities inside the banks OR on the sidewalks of Wall Street. I'm going to keep looking though because I know it's out there. When I find it, I'm going to support it like crazy and hopefully give it the muscle it needs to drown out your senseless whining.

Lastly, no matter how Republican it makes me seem to you, yes...I do believe in personal responsibility. Personal responsibility isn't just a fantasy talking-point of the right. It's an actual real-life thing that will help you fix your problems when you stop looking for others to fix them for you.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:47 pm
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FuseONE



Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 1715
Location: Newark, DE
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As much as i would love to just skip work and go protest some shit...and I really would...I got rent to pay. Which is just the way it was designed, I suppose.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:01 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Las Vegas
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People are punished because this system of money makes money benefits those who have, while eliminating those who do not have from the very beginning. Yes there are horatio alger myths that actually came true, but by and large, this system perpetuates poverty and concentration of wealth.

Your argument can be, and has been made, against every social program that has ever existed. It negates the opportunity that some people are born into and it uses anecdotal instances of rags to riches in order to keep people believing that one day they can have the picket fence too if they just work hard and take responsibility for themselves. Because they heard about a guy one time that did.

The people you speak of, that are poorer than those who lost their houses are a part of this. I don't know why you have made this movement into a campaign for the upper middle class that bought a house too expensive for their means. When was that dictated at any of these occupations?

I personally don't want anything for myself just because I want it. I'm good on my finances but I can understand that me being good like that and others not being good, has to do with factors other than me just handling my business and them being lazy gamblers. Like work ethic and financial responsibility are qualities that are granted to us all in the womb?

I don't think anybody is saying that we should all get what we want just because we want it. We want a more level playing field. We want those without to have a fraction of the opportunity as those born with.

I guess we look at the masses differently. You see them largely as people who are addicted to consumption and victims of their own inept risk ventures. I just don't look at people like that. Call me an optimist. Call me an empathist.

And no one wants a do-over just because they messed up. They want to point out that those loans never should have been given out. We have usury laws for the same reason that we have regulations on all sorts of things. Because if you don't, lenders will take advantage of people who are in a tight spot and loan them money with compounding huge interest rates and the payoff amount will become 30 times what the original amount was. Hence the term, predatory lending.

And honestly I believe in personal responsibility too, but I'm also willing to acknowledge that it comes easier for some than others and that we are not all created equally in a vacuum. We are all socialized and instilled with different ideas of what constitutes living properly. The idea that everyone has the same opportunity to be as financially responsible as you and I is what I find republican about your post.

That quote that I posted above, do you disagree with its sentiment? Or do you just not agree with the few facebook people that complained about debit charges and the pseudo activists you have come into contact with?

You have three people here, whom I think you know very well, that have been to these demonstrations have commented positively on it and you are arguing against this embryo type character that you have decided is leading this revolution against debit charges and subprime mortgages.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:29 pm
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note1



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1260
Location: providence
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This is normally the type of thing i would mock...but this does have some "stickness" to it...im interested to see how long it lasts. Because it's already lasted alot longer than i thought...i'll give em credit for that at least.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:32 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1829
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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http://i.imgur.com/Kh2FL.jpg

4 in the bed and the little one said roll over! roll over!
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:46 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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You say stuff like "all we want is an even playing field" without explaining how that's supposed to be achieved. And there are a lot of things you say that leave a huge question mark for me...but it's stated as if it's an implied understanding. I think that's what my main problem is at the moment with this movement overall. What is it that goes understood that I'm not understanding?


Also, when you said *you* were being punished, I just want to know how you think you were being punished. I don't want to know why you think people in general are punished for being subjected to capitalism, I want to hear why you think you have been punished. Because the story you told doesn't look like punishment to me.

I'm sorry to make this all about you right now, but you represent one significant segment of the #OccupyWallStreet people who I'm trying to make sense of before I can move onto the other stuff.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:48 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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Sage, I do feel you on the responsibility thing. That is something I'm working on, and the right wing shouldn't have sole claim to the concept.

I take responsibility for borrowing from Sallie Mae. because I believed that a bitchin job would be waitin for me when I get out. I should have made more mature, responsible decisions about financing my education.

I take responsibility for driving drunk, losing my driver license, landing me in more legal and financial trouble and making myself even less desirable to employers in a tough job market.

I just think that sometimes these concepts get thrown around by the right to deflect the systemic nature of my situation. Had I made these mistakes 30 years ago, the structure of the "market" and the "state" might not have made it possible to dust myself off keep moving. Believe me, i would love to not depend on the state - a system that I find inherently unjust - to give me "entitlements.

Right now I have no alternative. I may never have a choice but to play along with a game that was not my making. I would, however like to take responsibility for leaving something better for the next generation. If a high school diploma was devalued by the time I finished, I am scared to think of what the youth face as the prison money grows and grows.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:51 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Las Vegas
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Sage Francis wrote:
You say stuff like "all we want is an even playing field" without explaining how that's supposed to be achieved. And there are a lot of things you say that leave a huge question mark for me...but it's stated as if it's an implied understanding. I think that's what my main problem is at the moment with this movement overall. What is it that goes understood that I'm not understanding?


Also, when you said *you* were being punished, I just want to know how you think you were being punished. I don't want to know why you think people in general are punished for being subjected to capitalism, I want to hear why you think you have been punished. Because the story you told doesn't look like punishment to me.

I'm sorry to make this all about you right now, but you represent one significant segment of the #OccupyWallStreet people who I'm trying to make sense of before I can move onto the other stuff.
You are really focused on the punished thing. As I remember, you were telling me that I had a choice on choosing a mortgage that could not be bought by BofA. I replied that I, like a lot of people without 20% down and lower credit score, could not qualify for a mortgage other than FHA, under which I would have to agree that it can be bought. So I think I was saying that people who do not have a perfect credit score and huge down payment are in effect "punished" by the existing credit score lending system that forces us into certain loans due to our magical credit #s defining our ability to purchase on credit.

Yes I know, it is my choice to purchase on credit. Without credit no one of modest wealth would ever be able to afford a house up front. The fact that the wealthier people with great credit scores can pick and choose their loans creates a system in which they are rewarded for their wealth/credit score and other people are punished for their lack of.

Employers are now running credit scores for prospective employees. I was saying that the credit score loan system punishes some while rewarding others. I only brought it up because you told me I could choose my mortgage. I really didn't have a choice other than FHA or nothing. I chose to have a house. That's the only reason I said "punished."

Out of everything we are talking about, this is what you want to discuss.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:05 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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Confidential wrote:
Right now I have no alternative. I may never have a choice but to play along with a game that was not my making. I would, however like to take responsibility for leaving something better for the next generation. If a high school diploma was devalued by the time I finished, I am scared to think of what the youth face as the prison money grows and grows.


I feel the same exact way. This is why I'm saying what I'm saying. We're on the same page as far as this is concerned.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:07 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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Personal responsibility is what this is all about!!! The banks and government officials need to be responsible for their mistakes and their crimes! Likewise, everyone else should be as well. I agree 100% with that.

But you also have to factor in how people are purposely left in the dark with a lot of shit. School doesn't teach people have to deal with real life shit like banking, budgets, media literacy - although there are some recent changes in some schools. There definitely are a lot of people in this generation who feel entitled to a lot of shit but there are more people who are victims of these corporate and government crimes. Simple as that.

As a side note I believe that health care should be something that everyone is entitled to, no matter how lazy, stupid, etc, etc they are. Stop blowing up countries and take care of your citizens, USA government!
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:10 pm
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Sage Francis
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Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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tommi teardrop wrote:
Out of everything we are talking about, this is what you want to discuss.


It's one of the things I want to discuss because this might be the easiest thing to clear up. And once that's cleared up, I'm hoping a lot of other parts of this discussion will make more sense in regard to my argument vs. yours.

I still don't get the punishment thing. Why did you have to buy a house? Is everyone owed a house? Are some people punished due to their inability to purchase a house? Personally, I never would have considered buying a house until I accumulated enough money to afford one. I'm very glad I had the opportunity to do just that, but it didn't come without working my tail off. It turned out to be a wise investment. I made bad gambles along the way as well. I'm still making them. But every time I lose out on a gamble I take it as a strike against my decision making, hopefully learn from it, and move on.

If I felt like I was swindled, which also happens from time to time, I hoot and holler about it. I would love to hoot and holler with the people on Wall Street. I want it. I just can't feel it. So I'm stuck taking a stance that seemingly paints me into a "shitty guy" corner.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:15 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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Sage Francis wrote:
So I'm stuck taking a stance that seemingly paints me into a "shitty guy" corner.


You're explaining your POV clearly and expressing constructive criticism to people you feel represent the "occupation" movement. That's fine.

I don't agree with you that the self-entitled d-bags are the ones who represent the movement though.

Where are people getting their media from about this? I'm curious. I'm getting everything stricly from youtube and Democracy Now. I'm seeing a lot of different types of people, definitely not getting the vibe that the majority of these people are in that catagory.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:45 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Location: Las Vegas
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I didn't "have" to buy a house. I don't think punishment is predicated on "having" to get anything. I don't "have" to get a job, but if my credit score means that I'm not getting a job while someone with a higher score is, I would say that I am being punished for my credit score.

I was reluctant to go this direction because I'm not here arguing because I felt I was punished for having a less than steller credit score. And I don't want to be painted as the poor occupy supporter thats "whining" as you put it, about being punished on his mortgage application. I would have never mentioned it if you wouldn't have insinuated that I could have just chosen any mortgage I wanted. It feels like you're taking it that direction to portray the whole thing as people complaining about their interest rates.

I do however, think it is a bit naive to act like we can all just collectively choose to never use any of these institutions and cause them to crumble. They are at the core of everything. I was trying to say that for a lot of us, if we ever want to buy a house, and thus build equity, we will likely have to agree to a mortgage that can be bought by BofA or Wells.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:00 pm
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