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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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erich



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 3048
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i went down and visited for a while the other day. i don't know how to measure the effectiveness of a demonstration like this, though i don't know that that's necessary.

i can't help but have the cynical reaction of writing it all off as some flash in the pan back to school bullshit, but then i consider that reducing it all to some bored dreadlocked white kids is exactly what the supposed targets of the protest would do. if it comes down to agreeing with fox news or a drum circle, well, i know where i'm at with that.

i checked out the 99% website, the stories were mostly of straight laced working people who are upset about being fucked over economically. i think the hope is that as these kinds of demonstrations become more efficient, more inclusive, and more routine, average working people are going catch on that they will be better off siding with hippies than with predatory institutions.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:12 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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firefly wrote:
Bicycle wrote:
debated politics with kids during high school english class. It was the fashionable thing to do. Still is.


You know what's even more fashionable? Making fun of people who are actually doing something, sitting on your high horse and offering absolutely no solutions yourself. That shit is way lamer then "white chicks with dreadlocks" or whatever stupid hippy insult people are thowing around.

I think this is a reflection of how desperate things are right now. I honestly feel that these movements will continue to grow as long as the world financial situation continues to get worse. The whole 'We are the 99%" mantra makes sense because in the end all we have to do is take what's ours. But as long as we have people either too scared (of losing their job, getting arrested, etc), too comfortable, too negative, etc to actually do SOMETHING, we are never going to see any positive change.

My advice is if you don't have any solutions to offer don't try to knock these guys down. That won't accomplish anything but make yourself feel a little better about yourself.


I dont care about white chicks in dreadlocks. Or hippies. or any of that. who ultimately benefits from all this? I know what the forums collective opinion of the tea party is and this is the same shit to me. thats how i feel about it
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:22 pm
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 720
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wow. some of these responses are (not so) shocking!

although some of the (media elite) criticisms i've heard on here might be true(although not really from what i've seen) what people don't understand is that the organizing is being done AT THE FUCKING OCCUPATIONS. its a forum for organizing. nobody expects any of this to change minds on wall street, its to show the government, america and the world that the tea party is not going to hi jack the rage for a generation thats had its future bartered off. its to show america that we can stand up and do what they did in the 60s... like they did in the 20s... like has been done throughout history... the precise reason why we have silly things like the 8 hour work day, civil rights and ended the vietnam war. its to articulate that grievance and bring more people in... there were very few dreads or college kids at the occupydenver protests, all ages, all different types of people that you would never see in a forum together, building.

if you have a better idea for how we can effect change, contribute it to the general assembly, form a committee and make it happen. you wanna go blow something up? go fucking form a "get yourself arrested" committee. when this thing reaches a critical mass, it will become a block that will have to be dealt with.

its not about having a plan, its about getting yourself out there and airing your grievances. its not a koombaya moment, its the beginning of what HAS to be the clarion call for our generation. anyway, the OCCUPYWALLSTREET movement HAS adopted its 13 point "grievances" list, and those have been picked up by all the other 141 OCCUPATION movements(with slight regional alterations)... so last week arguments about what the purpose was, is no longer valid.

but by all means.... be pessimistic... cuz doing NOTHING in your BEDROOM surely isn't going to change anything... thats for sure.

anyone who saw 700 people getting arrested, and wasn't physically, emotionally moved, i can't relate to.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:15 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1832
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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THE ISSUE IS THE DREADLOCKS!

Anyone doing anything to bring attention to the scams of those fuckers is doing the right thing.

Yeah, it probably lacks direction but SO DO FUCKING YOU!

CAPITAL LETTERS!
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:10 pm
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


Joined: 27 Aug 2002
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amen.

maybe thats why im so PSYCHED !?!?!?!?
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:19 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI
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bigsole wrote:


although some of the (media elite) criticisms i've heard on here might be true(although not really from what i've seen) what people don't understand is that the organizing is being done AT THE FUCKING OCCUPATIONS. its a forum for organizing. nobody expects any of this to change minds on wall street, its to show the government, america and the world that the tea party is not going to hi jack the rage for a generation thats had its future bartered off. its to show america that we can stand up and do what they did in the 60s... like they did in the 20s... like has been done throughout history... the precise reason why we have silly things like the 8 hour work day, civil rights and ended the vietnam war. its to articulate that grievance and bring more people in... there were very few dreads or college kids at the occupydenver protests, all ages, all different types of people that you would never see in a forum together, building.


If that's true of all protests, then I don't see a whole lot of 'organizing' happening at these things. They throw around a sign-up sheet and sing a couple of bad covers of indie folk songs on the guitar but I've yet to see a rally where anyone goes home with a clear sense of purpose.. and isn't that apparently the whole point of these demonstrations, if it's not to effect change directly? I mean, can they begin with maybe getting a concise message together instead of 239489348 different causes and slogans lumped into every single protest, related or not?




bigsole wrote:
anyone who saw 700 people getting arrested, and wasn't physically, emotionally moved, i can't relate to.


It's weird to me, for some reason, that you try to invoke the demonstrations of the past that had HUGE numbers of demonstrators and arrests, but then make this kind of claim about 700 people?
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:36 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
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Does it really matter that there isnt a single unifying cause?

Shit is fucked up on so many levels where do you begin?

Even if this doesn't spark off anything right away it's a start.

BUT APATHY IS KEWL!
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:47 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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Location: New England
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I think Reggie said it best, followed by what Sage had to add. I do think, however, that this movement is good and am in no way condemning the actions frustrated, directionless individuals want to take in an attempt to get answers/whatever.

The big difference is that I'm not going to pretend like this is at all comparable to the movements of the 60s or the 20s. That's just rushing to add importance to it in desperation of making people think it's more than what it is. Looking at the numbers throughout recent history and civil movements, it's not at all close.

In the early 1900s, approximately 100,000 Indians were jailed for deliberately violating the Salt Laws. In 1919, more than 4 million works (about 21 percent of the labor force) participated in about 3,600 strikes. In 1929, 289,000 works participated in 900 strikes. The 1963 march on Washington, D.C. drew 250,000 participants. Protesting the war in Vietnam, approximately 500,000 people converged on D.C. The 1971 May Day traffic blocking that took place in D.C. resulted in 13,000 people being arrested. In 1984, in protest of apartheid, a campaign was launched that resulted in over 3,100 people being arrested in South Africa, with an additional 5,000 people being arrested in various major cities.

While Occupy Wall Street and actions like it might not be something to overlook, it most certainly ISN'T the civil rights movement of the 60s, or the labor movement of the 20s, or any major movement that has amounted to change. It seems like the key is getting a large number of people united under one common banner with a list of demands that they're unwilling to step aside for.

And you're dead wrong. It IS about having a plan. That's exactly what the SUCCESSFUL movements were about. Honestly, I'd rather not see an effort to bring equality to the distribution of wealth turned into a "jump on the bandwagon with whatever grievance you have and distort the message" movement like 95% of the protests in this country seem to be these days.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:52 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI
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Plum Puddin' wrote:
Does it really matter that there isnt a single unifying cause?

Shit is fucked up on so many levels where do you begin?

Even if this doesn't spark off anything right away it's a start.

BUT APATHY IS KEWL!


Apathy has nothing to do with what my post was about, but if you want to pretend like that's the case, go for it.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:57 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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Location: New England
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Plum Puddin' wrote:
Even if this doesn't spark off anything right away it's a start.


Like the anti-war movements centered around Iraq and Afghanistan? Were those a start? A start to what? 10+ years and there's still no end.

Maybe instead of pretending like we're still doing something "right" with our civil actions, we should look at what we might be doing wrong and fix those so some sort of change is actually possible. Trying to do the same things we've been doing for more than half of my adult life doesn't seem to be working at all. There's a huge group of people out there who'd love to support movements like this, but they're not being engaged and they don't see any purpose. Maybe looking into that is a better start than cheering on any protest/rally/whatever that pops up like it's going to bring down the capitalist empire?
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:58 pm
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xGasPricesx



Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 1568
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Yeah, I don't think the arguments criticizing the protests here are saying "Stupid kids, they should all just go home." But more of a "How can we best organize this frustration and passion about this issue into effecting positive change."

I give the people credit who are out there right now, and they are technically doing more than I am currently, but I think that we need to come up with better ways of creating these movements. This is the 21st century and we are still using the same old 20th century tactics, maybe it's time we started to use our generations tech savvy skills a little more.

Again, I realize that people at these movements right now are doing more than I am and are currently actively engaged, I just can't help but feel like their time and effort could be better spent in other places. And I think we need to keep the conversation open about alternative methods of dealing with this kind of thing.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:26 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
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Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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BAILOUT 2: THE DEBTINATION! Coming to a theatre near you.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:35 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
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See Arrrgh wrote:


Like the anti-war movements centered around Iraq and Afghanistan? Were those a start? A start to what? 10+ years and there's still no end.



Yes, those protests were a start. We gave up too easily.
Post Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:47 pm
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


Joined: 27 Aug 2002
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by all means... abuse your masters degrees...

me personally... i'd rather lend myself to something knowing damn well it can fail(one could say i've dedicated my life to such ventures). i suffer no delusions. none the less i am moved and proud to be a part of this. not gonna watch/judge this one from the sidelines while other people take all the risks.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:07 am
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
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Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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See Arrrgh wrote:
And you're dead wrong. It IS about having a plan. That's exactly what the SUCCESSFUL movements were about.


Yes, and that shit didn't happen over night. It started somewhere, probably with lots of different plans, opinions & ideas to consider.

But over time they worked that shit out. Refined it. Their movements grew brains that could organise and mouths that could articulate the problems.

People started listening.

Shit changed.



Will it fizzle out when everyone gets distracted by the iPhone 5?

Probably. Maybe not though.

I think people have a right to be pissed off about a lot of things.

Let 'em rage.

This shit is 4 years too late but at least it's something.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:48 am
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