Profile
Search
Register
Log in
Tracy Morgan & the Homophobic Rant (Updated)
View previous topic | View next topic >

Post new topic Reply to topic
Strange Famous Forum > Hall of Fame

Author Message
Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2019
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:
firefly wrote:
I believe the standup stage is a sacred space; It's one of the few places left where people are allowed to experiment, confront, and dance with ideas that society generally tiptoes around or avoids completely. That won't always go well. But if you try to take away the shitty part of that, you're likely to sacrifice the wonderful part of it too.
This fiction is so tiresome.

It is a place where the shit everyone says all the time gets reinforced and strengthened. The stand-up stage isn't the last bastion of the endangered homophobic perspective. There doesn't need to be a sacred space where the dominant culture gets to EXTRA do and say whatever they feel like without fear of censure.

Every space is already safe for jokes about stabbing gay kids. Motherfuckers now also want to be safe from hearing that someone doesn't like it, too? Suck it.


You love outrage like I love cake.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:16 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
 Reply with quote  

icarus502 wrote:
This is ridiculous, Jesse. You really think "every space is already safe for jokes about stabbing gay kids"? Really?! The only places that are truly "safe" for such jokes are probably the homes of people you'll never meet.
I do not for one second believe that you are so sheltered or ensconced in a social bubble of perspectives to your own that you think that's the truth.

Am I supposed to believe that you've really never met anyone??


Quote:

Also, you're missing the point about the "safe space" of the comic stage. It isn't that people think they should be safe from hearing that people are offended by things, it's...
Then why does it get brought up in response to stuff like this?


Quote:

1) Out of respect for the art of standup, the stage at small shows is sort of a workshop space in which the performer is free to work out material, to determine the correct pitch, pacing, and moral valence of the joke while gauging its reception in order to determine its placement within a larger, more permanent work like a special or an album. If the morality of a part of the performance is questionable, it could be because the performer is still working out the correct manner to put across the idea and they should be allowed some creative space to do so without being condemned.
So what?

Quote:

2) Insofar as there are some notions that are a part of our collective unconscious but are too inappropriate to voice aloud in most places and you and I can disagree as to which thoughts those are there should be some place in which such thoughts can be expressed with impunity depending on the artistic wherewithal of the performer.
What kind of "impunity" are we talking about, though? No punity has been part of any discussion at any point. Getting contradicted, called out and dissed is not punishment and people whose job is mostly contradicting, calling out and dissing other people should shut their whiny crybaby mouths about it and just think up a better joke.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:28 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
This is ridiculous, Jesse. You really think "every space is already safe for jokes about stabbing gay kids"? Really?! The only places that are truly "safe" for such jokes are probably the homes of people you'll never meet.
I do not for one second believe that you are so sheltered or ensconced in a social bubble of perspectives to your own that you think that's the truth.

Am I supposed to believe that you've really never met anyone??


Maybe the problem is the people you know. I know a wide range of people it's my thing, really, what I'm known for, knowing a lot of different types of people and I don't think that any of them are OK with killing gay kids. Not one. I could be wrong about a few of them, but I sincerely doubt it. I don't even think Rick Santorum would tolerate a joke about stabbing gay kids. We simply don't live in a society where that's considered OK. This is a good thing. Maybe at a different type of comedy show, with a different kind of audience, maybe that would be a less shocking thing to say. If it were Rush Limbaugh or Larry the Cable Guy making the joke, it would happen within a different discursive environment. But in an audience probably largely composed of Vandy and TSU students and fans of SNL/30 Rock, I'm gonna say that the standard belief is that you SHOULD NOT stab gay kids or joke about it. Things might be different in Ottawa, but I doubt it.



Quote:

Also, you're missing the point about the "safe space" of the comic stage. It isn't that people think they should be safe from hearing that people are offended by things, it's...
Then why does it get brought up in response to stuff like this?[/quote]

Because of people who apparently don't understand things like the poetic voice or the understand that there might be some value to the concept of the safety of the stage. Or that context matters. Or whatever...


Quote:

What kind of "impunity" are we talking about, though?

Without people who you'd not want to offend jumping to take offense. Without having your name dragged through the mud. Without having to post public apologies to the most vocally outraged groups. Etc. Again, you get it.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:55 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
 Reply with quote  

icarus502 wrote:
Maybe the problem is the people you know. I know a wide range of people it's my thing, really, what I'm known for, knowing a lot of different types of people and I don't think that any of them are OK with killing gay kids. Not one. I could be wrong about a few of them, but I sincerely doubt it. I don't even think Rick Santorum would tolerate a joke about stabbing gay kids. We simply don't live in a society where that's considered OK. This is a good thing. Maybe at a different type of comedy show, with a different kind of audience, maybe that would be a less shocking thing to say. If it were Rush Limbaugh or Larry the Cable Guy making the joke, it would happen within a different discursive environment. But in an audience probably largely composed of Vandy and TSU students and fans of SNL/30 Rock, I'm gonna say that the standard belief is that you SHOULD NOT stab gay kids or joke about it. Things might be different in Ottawa, but I doubt it.
You keep jumping back and forth between killing gay kids and joking about killing gay kids. Is it the same?

I think there are far fewer environments in which actually killing a gay kid, or any kid, would be tolerated than there are in which jokes about it would; and somewhere in between is the number of spaces in which a sincere expression of a wish to harm or kill a gay kid would be tolerated.

But what makes up one side of this argument is a whole lot of motherfuckers very decidedly tolerating a joke about killing a gay kid.


Quote:

Also, you're missing the point about the "safe space" of the comic stage. It isn't that people think they should be safe from hearing that people are offended by things, it's...
Then why does it get brought up in response to stuff like this?[/quote]Because of people who apparently don't understand things like the poetic voice or the understand that there might be some value to the concept of the safety of the stage. Or that context matters. Or whatever...[/quote]No, I mean if it isn't about not hearing that people have a problem with what was said on stage, then why would we discuss it when all that's happening is people expressing that they have a problem with something? It certainly isn't a censorship conversation, so what else is it?


Quote:

What kind of "impunity" are we talking about, though?

Without people who you'd not want to offend jumping to take offense. Without having your name dragged through the mud. Without having to post public apologies to the most vocally outraged groups. Etc. Again, you get it.[/quote]How on EARTH is it proposed to make a name safe from the mud!?? This is getting super weird.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:15 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

The whole thing is ridiculous. Was the joke funny? That is the only thing that matters. Comedy has always had an element of our dark side to it. It's kinky and seedy, and dirty and wrong. Some of it challenges. Some of it offends. Some of it is just ridiculous. So long as it is doing SOMETHING.

Give me Michael Richards self-destructing on stage yelling epithets over a bland half hour of tosh 2.0 any day.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:27 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
 Reply with quote  

"Give me Michael Richards self-destructing on stage yelling epithets over a bland half hour of tosh 2.0 any day."

I agree! Unless it's "tosh 2.0 PLUS racist/homophobic/ignorant/etc shtick.
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:23 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1829
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
 Reply with quote  

Mark in Minnesota wrote:

You love outrage like I love cake.


But you're a Manputer.

Manputers can't eat cake.

It'll clog your fans & make you run slow. er.

We're never gonna make it to our distopian Manpuddin'/Manputer future together if you don't take care of your self.

By then the clip will be released & we can judge it together.

Well i can sit there sniffing end times future paint & you can give me a 3 volume break down i can analyse in my haze.

You are the last of the M-7000's built. Act like it!

Stop sabotaging me!
Post Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:42 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
 Reply with quote  

futuristxen wrote:
The whole thing is ridiculous. Was the joke funny? That is the only thing that matters. Comedy has always had an element of our dark side to it. It's kinky and seedy, and dirty and wrong. Some of it challenges. Some of it offends. Some of it is just ridiculous. So long as it is doing SOMETHING.
That's fine for assessing comedy AS COMEDY. It doesn't extend in significance past that venue, however.

There are probably more than a hundred ways to punch a baby that would be really hilarious. I can think of a dozen without trying. The right timing, the right wind-up, the right response... it's almost automatically funny, and it can easily be pushed into breathtaking hilarity with very little effort.

But when the world's funniest baby-puncher gets hauled into court after his packed-arena Comedy Central special "S.I.D.S." leaves a few kids crippled, the judge doesn't bang his gavel in the middle of the prosecution's opening remarks and shout, "The whole thing is ridiculous. Was the joke funny? That is the only thing that matters..."

For that reason, I never bother with the argument that a given thing "just isn't funny" to joke about. Anything can be funny, but being funny doesn't mean being not harmful. It's about as good of a measure of whether a bad thing was okay to do as whether it was profitable, or resulted in orgasm. Lots of shit is funny; it isn't so scarce that we need to tolerate just ANYthing to preserve every possible chance to laugh.


Quote:

Give me Michael Richards self-destructing on stage yelling epithets over a bland half hour of tosh 2.0 any day.
Michael Richards is not even an example of what you're talking about. For one thing, other comedians did not defend him - Black comedians by and large disavowed and censured him. There was certainly no call for a safe space then. The argument could be made (and has been) that he wasn't doing his standup bit at the time, just personally railing on the people who upset him, so maybe that's why it wasn't defended... but people who see any similarities between what happened with Richards and the response to Morgan's joke are boiling both down to "A comedian said something on stage and some people didn't like it," and that's ridiculous.

I also am not holding my breath to see if the headlines tomorrow are scrapped for the shocking breaking story: "WHITE GIRL TOTALLY FINE WITH THE MICHAEL RICHARDS THING. FEELINGS NOT HURT AT ALL BY REFERENCE TO LYNCHING."
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:25 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
The whole thing is ridiculous. Was the joke funny? That is the only thing that matters. Comedy has always had an element of our dark side to it. It's kinky and seedy, and dirty and wrong. Some of it challenges. Some of it offends. Some of it is just ridiculous. So long as it is doing SOMETHING.
That's fine for assessing comedy AS COMEDY. It doesn't extend in significance past that venue, however.




I would put it to you that comedy as third hand information past the venue has no significance. Someone horribly reciting to you their butchered up memory of some funny bits they heard the night before is not "comedy". It's bad gossip. Comedy has a particular context, and to just remove it completely from it's context is absurd.

It's like after a Sarah Silverman show coming out and saying that she went into a hate-filled rant about aids babies, black people, and Catholics. Yeah she has bits about all of those things, but the bits aren't actually hate-filled, they are ABOUT being hate filled and how absurd those hatreds are. They're MOCKING bigotry. But in a third hand account--how on earth am I to know that?


Quote:


For that reason, I never bother with the argument that a given thing "just isn't funny" to joke about. Anything can be funny, but being funny doesn't mean being not harmful. It's about as good of a measure of whether a bad thing was okay to do as whether it was profitable, or resulted in orgasm. Lots of shit is funny; it isn't so scarce that we need to tolerate just ANYthing to preserve every possible chance to laugh.

[/quote]

Right. But you can talk about punching babies in their faces because they are gay on stage until you are blue in the face, and it is a protected right. And you as a citizen have the right to say "Oi! I'm offended by that grumble grumble", but neither of you can restrict the other in their right to say those things. I know in the grand scheme of mind wars, words are harm--but I would not want to live in a society that was actually governed that way.

Particularly when in this case we are talking about someone's words, about someone else's words. Particularly when the offender was on a stage performing, and I know said comedian is an absurdist who says a lot of things to make them look as ridiculous as they are. It just seems like a dumb thing to do.
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:45 am
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21596
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:
There are probably more than a hundred ways to punch a baby that would be really hilarious. I can think of a dozen without trying.


This is comedy gold. It made me laugh and then I challenged my imagination to come up with a dozen ways of punching a baby.
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:37 am
 View user's profile Send private message
Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8547
Location: Third Coast
 Reply with quote  

Sage Francis wrote:
Jesse wrote:
There are probably more than a hundred ways to punch a baby that would be really hilarious. I can think of a dozen without trying.


This is comedy gold. It made me laugh and then I challenged my imagination to come up with a dozen ways of punching a baby.


The thought is certainly funnier than the act. Even Gallagher drew the line with fruits and vegetables.
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:49 am
 View user's profile Send private message
jrspudsquad



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 395
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:


There are probably more than a hundred ways to punch a baby that would be really hilarious...
...
But when the world's funniest baby-puncher gets hauled into court


Can we verify that you misspoke when making this insane comparison? Tracy Morgan stabbing his own gay child on stage, i dare say, would offend me. And, you do not end up in court for telling a baby punching joke. I cross my fingers hoping that you understand the difference.
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:54 am
 View user's profile Send private message
Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
 Reply with quote  

Captiv8 wrote:
Sage Francis wrote:
Jesse wrote:
There are probably more than a hundred ways to punch a baby that would be really hilarious. I can think of a dozen without trying.


This is comedy gold. It made me laugh and then I challenged my imagination to come up with a dozen ways of punching a baby.


The thought is certainly funnier than the act. Even Gallagher drew the line with fruits and vegetables.


Obviously you've forgotten about the carnage at the first and only Black Gallagher performance.
Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:01 am
 View user's profile Send private message
firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
 Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:
Michael Richards is not even an example of what you're talking about. For one thing, other comedians did not defend him - Black comedians by and large disavowed and censured him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kth0UOU5a_M

Watch the video and skip to 1:50 ish.
Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:35 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 903
 Reply with quote  

Ahhhh I miss Chappelle.
Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:52 am
 View user's profile Send private message

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
All times are GMT - 6 Hours.
The time now is Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:20 pm
  Display posts from previous:      


Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
Template created by The Fathom
Based on template of Nick Mahon