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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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redball wrote:
But I will vehemently disagree with the shitty circular logic that someone doing something to upset authority is always a covert operation by government forces to give them the excuse to exert power.


I didn't say that it had to be, I said that it could be.


Quote:

I think that these "anonymous" guys are either idiots or agents.


And I should have phrased that better, meaning that I know there are real people who are part of "anon" who are sincere, but this action could easily have been staged in their name. Especially considering that they're anonymous, it's hard to pin point who actually did what.

Either way, like Crash said, this could be seen as an act of terrorism and will do nothing but to justify a "need" to crack down on the internet. I don't see how anything good can come from this.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:44 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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And I need to disagree with the characterization of these people as script kiddies. Anonymous is certainly comprised largely of such people, but this attack makes clear that they have at least a few people within their ranks that are adept at classic cracking skills. In short order they located a SQL injection vulnerability, dumped the db, got a few passwords, gained control of administrator email accounts, used social engineering to gain more access, took control of the site, identified other attack vectors within the network, gained root access to network servers, and then destroyed the company's network. While none of this is mind blowing, it's the sort of classic, effective work that crackers have done for 30 years now. (For reference see: The Cuckoo's Egg)

Now then, is it terrorism? Sure. But it's the sort of terrorism that goes on every single day and you just never hear about it. Normally people do this to extort money or outright steal it. This won't trigger a crackdown any more than the Chaos Computer Club did back in the 80's, or the Russian mafia has every day.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:50 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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firefly wrote:
redball wrote:
But I will vehemently disagree with the shitty circular logic that someone doing something to upset authority is always a covert operation by government forces to give them the excuse to exert power.


I didn't say that it had to be, I said that it could be.



And they all could be, and this is said every time something like this happens. If the government doesn't like something and does not have the power to control it then it will likely seek access to such power. By your logic the Wikileaks leaks could be allowed on purpose specifically to force new government secrecy laws.

The point is that there's no evidence of a conspiracy so there's absolutely no reason to bring it up. And no, that the government could use this as a justification to do something bad is not evidence.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:55 am
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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2536
Location: TKO from Tokyo
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firefly wrote:
redball wrote:
But I will vehemently disagree with the shitty circular logic that someone doing something to upset authority is always a covert operation by government forces to give them the excuse to exert power.


I didn't say that it had to be, I said that it could be.


Quote:

I think that these "anonymous" guys are either idiots or agents.


And I should have phrased that better, meaning that I know there are real people who are part of "anon" who are sincere, but this action could easily have been staged in their name. Especially considering that they're anonymous, it's hard to pin point who actually did what.

Either way, like Crash said, this could be seen as an act of terrorism and will do nothing but to justify a "need" to crack down on the internet. I don't see how anything good can come from this.


What about the lulz?
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:09 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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firefly wrote:
I think that these "anonymous" guys are either idiots or agents.

For the little bit of disruption that they are causing they are going to give excuses to governments to lock down the internet if this shit keeps up.


Hah, dude they're a bunch of nerds from 4chan. Do you suspect your mother is an agent?

And yes, this is 100% win for the internet. People need to recognize the internet don't take shit from no one. This is your new battlefront. Wars are fought with drones. Info and truth are the commodities.

The revolution wouldn't have been won or even STARTED in Egypt without the internet.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:15 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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redball wrote:
By your logic the Wikileaks leaks could be allowed on purpose specifically to force new government secrecy laws.


You mean the guy who was in a brainwashed cult (Assange) could be an agent? IMPOSSIBLE!


Quote:

The point is that there's no evidence of a conspiracy so there's absolutely no reason to bring it up. And no, that the government could use this as a justification to do something bad is not evidence.


No point to hyphothethize because there's no proof? Seems like weird logic.

Let's get off the "was it staged or not" debate for a second because that's just a theory I wanted to bring up. What I am pretty certain of is that this is not something to be happy about. It will not fix anything, it will only further fuck shit up.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:21 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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jakethesnake wrote:
Hah, dude they're a bunch of nerds from 4chan. Do you suspect your mother is an agent?


How on Earth could you know if this was really done by "nerds from 4chan" if it's "anonymous"?

Where's your proof?
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:23 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Location: airstrip one
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firefly wrote:
redball wrote:
By your logic the Wikileaks leaks could be allowed on purpose specifically to force new government secrecy laws.


You mean the guy who was in a brainwashed cult (Assange) could be an agent? IMPOSSIBLE!


Quote:

The point is that there's no evidence of a conspiracy so there's absolutely no reason to bring it up. And no, that the government could use this as a justification to do something bad is not evidence.


No point to hyphothethize because there's no proof? Seems like weird logic.

Let's get off the "was it staged or not" debate for a second because that's just a theory I wanted to bring up. What I am pretty certain of is that this is not something to be happy about. It will not fix anything, it will only further fuck shit up.


You have the burden of proof dude. You literally think these guys are an "Agent" on a hunch. Seriously guy stop watching spy movies.

These are the kind of guys that literally live with their mothers and hang out at sites like: www.digitalgangster.com

They just happened to find a SQL security flaw in this HBGary website and took advantage of it.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:26 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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dan- i agree, the attack on hbgary is a lot like taking out the riot police (that is, government contracted riot police). the attack on visa was more along the lines of vandalism. from what i understand they didn't seriously effect visa's business - they did some minor damage and let their intentions be known. i'm wondering when these two will intersect - when anon decides to dismantle a business simply because the disagree with what it's doing.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:29 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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And you know how "I" know Anonymous is based on 4chan?

Because, /b/ wrote the rules on the internet.

1. Do not talk about /b/
2. Do NOT talk about /b/
3. We are Anonymous.
4. Anonymous is legion.
5. Anonymous does not forgive, Anonymous does not forget.
6. Anonymous can be horrible, senseless, uncaring monster.
7. Anonymous is still able to deliver.
8. There are no real rules about posting.
9. There are no real rules about moderation either — enjoy your ban.
10. If you enjoy any rival sites — DON'T.
11. You must have pictures to prove your statement.
12. Lurk moar — it's never enough.
13. Nothing is Sacred.
14. Do not argue with a troll — it means that they win.
15. The more beautiful and pure a thing is, the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.
16. There are NO girls on the internet.
17. A cat is fine too.
18. One cat leads to another.
19. The more you hate it, the stronger it gets.
20. It is delicious cake. You must eat it.
21. It is delicious trap. You must hit it.
22. /b/ sucks today.
23. Cock goes in here.
24. You will never have sex.
25. ????
26. PROFIT!
27. It needs more Desu. No exceptions.
28. There will always be more fucked up shit than what you just saw.
29. You can not divide by zero (just because the calculator says so).
30. No real limits of any kind apply here — not even the sky
31. CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
32. EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL YOU STILL HAVE TO STEER.
33. Desu isn't funny. Seriously guys. It's worse than Chuck Norris jokes.
34. There is porn of it. No exceptions.
35. If no porn is found of it, it will be created.
36. No matter what it is, it is somebody's fetish. No exceptions.
37. Even one positive comment about Japanese things can make you a weeaboo.
38. When one sees a lion, one must get into the car
39. There is furry porn of it. No exceptions.
40. The pool is always closed due to AIDS (and stingrays, which also have AIDS).
41. If there isn't enough just ask for Moar.
42. Everything has been cracked and pirated.
43. DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS
44. The internet is not your personal army.
45. Rule 45 is a lie.
46. The cake is a lie.
47. If you post it, they will cum.
48. It will always need moar sauce.
49. The internet makes you stupid.
50. Anything can be a meme.
51. Longcat is looooooooooong.
52. If something goes wrong, Ebaums did it.
53. Anonymous is a virgin by default.
54. Moot has cat ears, even in real life. No exceptions.
55. CP is awwwright, but DSFARGEG will get you b&.
56. Don't mess with football.
57. MrSpooky has never seen so many ingrates.
58. Anonymous does not "buy", he downloads.
59. The term "sage" does not refer to the spice.
60. If you say Candlejack, you w
61. You cannot divide by zero.
62. The internet is SERIOUS FUCKING BUSINESS.
63. If you do not believe it, then it must be habeebed for great justice.
64. Not even Spider-Man knows how to shot web.
65. Mitchell Henderson was an hero to us all.
66. This is not lupus, it's SPARTAAAAAAAAAA.
67. One does not simply shoop da whoop into Mordor.
68. Katy is bi, so deal w/it.
69. LOL SIXTY NINE AMIRITE?
70. Also, cocks.
71. This is a showdown, a throwdown, hell no I can't slow down, it's gonna go.
72. Anonymous did NOT, under any circumstances, tk him 2da bar|?
73. If you express astonishment at someone's claim, it is most likely just a clever ruse.
74. If it hadn't been for Cotton Eyed Joe, Anonymous would have been married a long time ago.
75. Around Snacks, CP is lax.
76. All numbers are at least 100 but always OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND.
77. Hal Turner definitely needs to gb2/hell/.
78. Mods are fucking fags. No exceptions.
79. All Caturday threads will be bombarded with Zippocat. No exceptions.
80. No matter how cute it is, it probably skullfucked your mother last night.
81. That's not mud.
82. Steve Irwin's death is really, really funny.
83. The Internet is SERIOUS FUCKING BUSINESS.
84. Rule 87 is true.
85. Yes, it is some chickens.
86. Bobba bobba is bobba.
87. Rule 84 is false. OH SHI-
88. If your statement is preceded by "HAY GUYZ", then you are not doing it right.
89. If you cannot understand it, it is machine code.
90. Anonymous still owes Hal Turner one trillion U.S. dollars.
91. Spengbab Sqarpaint is luv Padtwick Zhstar iz fwend.
92. Disregard Bigmike, he sucks cocks.
93. Secure tripcodes are for jerks.
94. If someone herd u liek Mudkips, deny it constantly for the lulz.
95. Combo breakers are inevitable. If the combo is completed successfully, it is gay.
96. I am a huge faggot. Please rape my face.
97. Shit sucks and will never be stickied.
98. Bricks must are required to be shat whenever Anonymous is surprised.
99. If you have no bricks to shit, you are made of fail and AIDS.
100. ZOMG NONE
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:40 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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Anonymous = /b/

That's just basic fact. If you know nothing else about them you should know that.


firefly wrote:
What I am pretty certain of is that this is not something to be happy about. It will not fix anything, it will only further fuck shit up.


There is something to be happy about here, though.

First, this won't fuck anything up. That you think it will shows that you know little to nothing about this area of law and society. Even if you were to start monitoring it and in a few months threw some proposed legislation up about it, I could show you how that legislation was planned in advance of this anyway. Even if this was used as some kind of rallying cry for such a legislation, it would be nothing more than a figurehead that ignores the thousands of similar cases. In short, this changes nothing from a legal perspective.

Secondly, this is a case where an "enforcer" got the shit knocked out of him. Some pious white hat fucker that sells information to big institutions got floored. Perhaps the most important aspect of this is that before Anon did it HBGary was planning to participate in an online FUD campaign against and sell information about Wikileaks. They aren't doing that now and the world knows about it so such an attack is likely to fail. Suffice to say that HBGary was not one of the good guys, isn't it good when one of the bad guys disappears?
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:41 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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NO BECAUSE THEY ARE AGENTS!!!!

What's a SQL Query anyway?
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:43 am
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The Count



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1558
Location: Chapel Hill
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I once saw a job description with the word "sequel" under "desired skills".
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:03 am
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squirtisblow



Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 1587
Location: SFV
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jakethesnake wrote:
NO BECAUSE THEY ARE AGENTS!!!!

What's a SQL Query anyway?


SQL is like a database language. SQL databases store large amounts of data. The easiest example would be if you put the phone book to a database. Everyone has a name, address, number, in all these columns and rows etc.

A sql query is just a kind of script you write out to find certain information in a huge database. So you could write a query to find all people named "Dan" in the area code "818", or something like that.

The query would look like:

SELECT Name and Areacode FROM PhoneBook WHERE Name = "Dan%" and Areacode = "818%"

That's a pretty basic explanation from someone who doesn't know sql that well and i haven't done a query in a long time.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:06 am
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Finn



Joined: 05 Jan 2011
Posts: 53
Location: Boston, MA
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You guys. I really don't think it's that appropriate to call this "terrorism." That is, to me, too broad a use of a term which is already approaching cliché status. There is real danger in the idea of "terrorism" becoming clichéd. It's just such a -- no pun intended -- nuclear bomb of a word. We should be very careful not to judge the actions of others are "terrorist," lest our own actions be judged as such by others who disagree with us. Especially those in positions of authority.

Specifically, this attack does not appear to have been carried out with the intent of causing fear in the general population, and non-involved persons were not deliberately targeted or carelessly taken as casualties. Some people at HBGary threaten Anonymous, Anonymous seriously smashes on HBGary. It's like building a McDonalds in an inner-city neighborhood, then it leaks out that the manager of that McDonalds has been insulting and threatening the residents there, and then the residents smash and tear up the restaurant.

What Anonymous did was obviously a crime, but sometimes I think that the American concept of treating corporations like persons gets carried a little too far in the hearts and minds of witnesses.
Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:51 pm
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