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Revolutions throughout the Middle East!!!
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Mr Jenkins



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 601
Location: Aotearoa
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Ya think? democracy in Gaza doesn't bode well with em.
Post Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:59 pm
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Lonely Shinobi



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 349
Location: adelaide, AUS
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pretty sure republicans are gonna keep on the "Democracy in Egypt is scary" line.

Doesnt mean they wont try to take credit too, I guess. Who needs consistency these days?
Post Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:02 pm
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Bring that Beat Back



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 854
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Power to the people.
Post Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:33 pm
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badjerk



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 427
Location: pdx
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y'all are dummies. why dont you try to educate yourself before trying to sound so smart...

seriously this is damn good

Post Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:05 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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That Glen Beck video was kind of excited. I like how his fear is my desire. Hell Yeah The Coming Insurrection!
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:34 am
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Iowa City
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I like how there is a blank chalkboard in the middle to show the immense space and difference between the Middle East and Europe.

That was the most muddled and confusing thing I've seen in a long time. What a fucking idiot.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:57 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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What a brilliant ploy by Mubarak's people. Just have the police take off their uniforms.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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things are going to shit. the army has "suggested" that the protesters go home. they have let pro-mubarak. "protesters" (at least some of whom are plain clothes police), carrying weapons, some riding horses and camels, into tahir square. both sides have been throwing stones at each other.

the pro-mubarak crowds have been chasing journalists: al jazeera and al arabiya.

mubarak said last night that he won't run for another term and will step down after the next election in september. clearly that's not enough to satisfy most of the protesters. i think the army wants mubarak to go but maintain the regime for the most part.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:03 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
Can't wait for republicans to claim democracy is spreading because of what we did in Iraq

here ya go: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/28/AR2011012803144.html

most republicans are making statements against the revolution. apparently arabs shouldn't create their own democracy. they should wait for us bomb it into them.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:13 am
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1045
Location: Halifax, NS
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Things really are going to shit. Pro-gov't protesters riding a millitary vehicle into the square? Ruh-roh.

Hey Crash, regarding something you posted a while ago, do you think Egypt would, given a "free and complete" democracy elect a more theocratic (not sure if that's the proper term) style of government?
From what I recall from a few undergrad courses, the general population in Egypt was more hardline islamist than quite a few other countries in the region.

I am making no claims, just curious.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:29 am
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badjerk



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 427
Location: pdx
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crash wrote:

mubarak said last night that he won't run for another term and will step down after the next election in september.


is it just me, or is this not that horrible of a compromise? i mean he's been in power over 30 years and there is no clear successor even if he steps down today.

from a practical standpoint wouldnt this resolution at least give the opposition time to get their shit together somewhat and time to organize an actual impartial election, which i think is the end goal of many of them.

I can understand their sentiment of not wanting him to remain for one more day, but it seems rather unrealistic. also, the protesters have seen what it takes to have significant impact, so couldn't they just do this again in the coming months if he starts abusing power before elections?

i dont have a well-developed opinion, so would be interested to hear from someone who might.

the plainclothes police posing as pro-govt protesters is quite disturbing, but dont we have to at least consider the possibility that this could be made up by the opposition protesters? for some reason it just seems real convenient for their cause. not that im pro-mubarak, but im hesitant to blindly side on all points with a disorganized mass of people with fractured agendas.

(for those who watched that beck masterpiece) Italy is on fire!!!
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:31 am
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1045
Location: Halifax, NS
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Also, I like that Al-Jazeera tells it like it is in this case... the anchor is all but saying the pro-Mubarak protesters are plainclothes police. Questioning both the timing (why now, after a week-plus, do we seem them for the first time?) and the reports that they were led to the square by security forces.
Love it.

I need to pay more attention to Al-Jazeera.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:35 am
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AdamBomb



Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 3183
Location: Louisiana
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badjerk wrote:
y'all are dummies. why dont you try to educate yourself before trying to sound so smart...

seriously this is damn good




When I see this guy, all I can see is Ralphie from Christmas Story. I can't get past that.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:50 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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badjerk wrote:
crash wrote:

mubarak said last night that he won't run for another term and will step down after the next election in september.


is it just me, or is this not that horrible of a compromise? i mean he's been in power over 30 years and there is no clear successor even if he steps down today.

from a practical standpoint wouldnt this resolution at least give the opposition time to get their shit together somewhat and time to organize an actual impartial election, which i think is the end goal of many of them.

I can understand their sentiment of not wanting him to remain for one more day, but it seems rather unrealistic. also, the protesters have seen what it takes to have significant impact, so couldn't they just do this again in the coming months if he starts abusing power before elections?

i dont have a well-developed opinion, so would be interested to hear from someone who might.

the plainclothes police posing as pro-govt protesters is quite disturbing, but dont we have to at least consider the possibility that this could be made up by the opposition protesters? for some reason it just seems real convenient for their cause. not that im pro-mubarak, but im hesitant to blindly side on all points with a disorganized mass of people with fractured agendas.

(for those who watched that beck masterpiece) Italy is on fire!!!


The only way that it’s a good compromise is if the elections in September are free and fair, and I don’t see any reason to trust that it will be. I don’t doubt his promise to not run again, but I’m sure the regime will try and replace him with someone just as autocratic.

Right now there is momentum. There is an incredible feeling of unity in Egypt right now that bridges the religious and economic divides in the country. I think that feeling is very important when creating a democracy. These feelings of unity and the lack of fear engender a trust that allows democracy to actually work. With trust there’s no reason to stockpile weapons, to exploit sectarian tensions, etc. The opposition needs to capitalize on this. Given 8 months, the regime will work on dividing the people, exacerbating tensions between the Copts and Muslims, shutting down the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. The regime has everything to gain from exploiting fear and instability.

I think most people would be happy if Mubarak stepped down immediately and handed over power to an interim president (which could even be someone from his regime) as long as elections would be held as soon as possible.

I don’t doubt that the police are posing as pro-Mubarak protesters. The percentage of police among the pro-Mubarak camp might be over-emphasized by the opposition, but they’re in there. Most of the people in Egypt who support Mubarak are those who benefit directly from his regime – some of the elite, the security and police services, the upper echelons of the army, big business, etc. The only people in that group willing to risk their necks are the police and security. The claim from the opposition that I’d give less credence to is that the police are responsible for all the looting and destruction in an effort to create instability. It’s tough for a nationalistic Egyptian to admit that their own countrymen would loot antiquities out of the National Museum.

Now there’s gunfire in Tahir square. The army has shown itself for what it is. It has let armed thugs into Tahir square to cause trouble. It knew it couldn’t take on protesters directly so it waited for them to tire themselves out, then let in Mubarak’s thugs to cause chaos and fear in an effort to shut down the revolution. I think things are going to get a lot worse in the upcoming days. The protesters have come so far, they do not want to give in now. They still vastly outnumber the security forces and pro-Mubarak element of society. This is really not good.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:20 am
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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Inedible Condiment wrote:
Hey Crash, regarding something you posted a while ago, do you think Egypt would, given a "free and complete" democracy elect a more theocratic (not sure if that's the proper term) style of government?
From what I recall from a few undergrad courses, the general population in Egypt was more hardline islamist than quite a few other countries in the region.


The term is Islamist. Theology is rule by the clergy, and unlike Shiism, in Sunni Islam there is no clergy. The Muslim Brotherhood is well established in Egypt compared to other Arab countries, but I don’t think the overall population is more Islamist. It’s certainly less Islamist than Algeria, Jordan, or any of the Gulf states. Most of the estimates I’ve heard suggest the MB would win 20-30% of the vote in an open election. Look at the protests – no one is shouting Allah Akbar and there are few if any religious signs or banners.

Even if the MB lead a coalition government, they wouldn’t be in a position to affect radical change. I do have concerns with women’s and Coptic rights, and I think they’d be too cozy with Hamas, but it’s not like they’re going to invade Israel or let al-Qaida set up shop. Considering the years of repression, Egypt has remarkably vibrant civil institutions – unions, a free press, and socialist/secular opposition parties. In a democracy these institutions would grow and be a counterweight to the increased influence of the MB.
Post Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:58 am
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