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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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FranktheP



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 1367
Location: East Coast, Fuck You!
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Bicycle wrote:
I dont see a difference between a soldier and a murderer.


I honestly cannot tell if you are trying to start shit or if you really don't know how to put your thoughts down on screen. I can sense the point you are trying to make but then statements like this and your need to use generalizations that totally throws me off your path.

I know several cops and they did not join up to kill people. They joined up because it pays well, its relatively safe (suburbs not urban) and the benefits were good. I know several military men and none of them joined to kill...most if not all joined for the benefits and pension. But that doesn't mean there haven't been or are people in either field that just liked to fuck people up.

No disrepect meant...you seem to be making a somewhat valid point but you are sabotaging your own case by speaking in general and not in specifics.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:44 am
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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The reason that John Stewart speech bugs me is the same reason the Palin speech does. Does anyone else notice how when this happens in another country, or by a darker shade of killer, then the same rhetoric about "let's not blame society, this was an individual act by an evil person," does not apply? That is really apparent to me in all this.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:08 pm
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6497
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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So do we think Sarah Palin knew what the term "blood libel" meant at the time she uttered it?
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:31 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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This story has grown boring.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:37 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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the mean wrote:
So do we think Sarah Palin knew what the term "blood libel" meant at the time she uttered it?

i'm sure her speech writer did, but didn't care. i don't think she has any idea what it means but thinks it sounds bad.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:41 pm
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phataccino



Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4772
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crash wrote:
the mean wrote:
So do we think Sarah Palin knew what the term "blood libel" meant at the time she uttered it?

i'm sure her speech writer did, but didn't care. i don't think she has any idea what it means but thinks it sounds bad.

This is what I was thinking. She probably knows that libel is "some newspapery thing" but had no idea what "blood libel" means.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:48 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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I actually have no idea what blood libel means. I don't think she came up with that on her own. Pat Buchannon followed up with praises for Palin and a definition of the term. Something about medieval Europe or some shit.

Just looked up the term and Palin's use, I have no clue how what context this is meant to be interpreted in. So the media is the one libeling? And the libeled is who? Palin? Victims of the shooting?

Stupid american politics and its lack of context.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm
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the mean
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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I bet she just thought it sounded evil, Confidential. The two minutes you put into thinking and writing up possibilities is two more minutes than she spent trying to understand the term.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:01 pm
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jehu



Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 9310
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Confidential wrote:

Just looked up the term and Palin's use, I have no clue how what context this is meant to be interpreted in. So the media is the one libeling? And the libeled is who? Palin? Victims of the shooting?


by all accounts, the term is being used out of context. shocking, i know.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:04 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI
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Lumping everyone in the military together and calling them all murderers is one of the most asinine and stupid things ever. It's propaganda, straight up, just like the 'other' side trying to push the idea of going over there to END THE WAR ON TERROR!

Give me a fucking break.

People join the military for a number of reasons, and they all react to their times in combat differently. Some people seem fine when they come home. Some people don't. You think a psychopathic murderer who just wants to kill people is going to come home and suffer the way many of our soldiers suffer when they return home? Calling them murderers is spitting in the faces of every man and woman who has come back from war broken and trying to piece themselves back together because the people in charge sent them to war for profit (regardless of if they went voluntarily or got drafted in, like in the past.) Grow the fuck up.

**Edit: I know the discourse in the thread has strayed a little from this specific point, but it's something I feel strongly about.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:29 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6310
Location: airstrip one
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anomaly wrote:
This story has grown boring.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/shooting-suspect-released-after-not-breaking-any-a,18809/
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:09 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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FranktheP wrote:
Bicycle wrote:
I dont see a difference between a soldier and a murderer.


I honestly cannot tell if you are trying to start shit or if you really don't know how to put your thoughts down on screen. I can sense the point you are trying to make but then statements like this and your need to use generalizations that totally throws me off your path.

I know several cops and they did not join up to kill people. They joined up because it pays well, its relatively safe (suburbs not urban) and the benefits were good. I know several military men and none of them joined to kill...most if not all joined for the benefits and pension. But that doesn't mean there haven't been or are people in either field that just liked to fuck people up.

No disrepect meant...you seem to be making a somewhat valid point but you are sabotaging your own case by speaking in general and not in specifics.


Thank you for letting me know how my words are coming across. I dont take offense to such criticism

Im not trying to start nothing I just have a hard time staying focused on a single idea as I dont really have a solid opinion on much of anything. Just gut feelings Im trying to interpret into something tangible

Im using generalizations because I'm concerned more with demographics than with individuals. The human brain is base emotion with layers of preference built on top of it. If you get through the layers you get to the root of the issue. The military doesn't appeal to me. It does appeal to some people. Who are these people and why does it appeal to them? Regardless of their intent they must accept the fact that they may have to kill someone. So they have to believe that there is a justifiable reason to kill. Why would they think that? So on and so forth. Of course there are a lot of variables but you should be able to find some unifying characteristics and then relate those to environmental conditions

As far as there being no distinction between a soldier and a murderer. Thats just me. and its not a judgement of right or wrong. The word 'murderer' has a negative connotation to it but what is a murderer other than a soldier for their own cause?
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:46 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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IAmNiki wrote:
Lumping everyone in the military together and calling them all murderers is one of the most asinine and stupid things ever. It's propaganda, straight up, just like the 'other' side trying to push the idea of going over there to END THE WAR ON TERROR!

Give me a fucking break.

People join the military for a number of reasons, and they all react to their times in combat differently. Some people seem fine when they come home. Some people don't. You think a psychopathic murderer who just wants to kill people is going to come home and suffer the way many of our soldiers suffer when they return home? Calling them murderers is spitting in the faces of every man and woman who has come back from war broken and trying to piece themselves back together because the people in charge sent them to war for profit (regardless of if they went voluntarily or got drafted in, like in the past.) Grow the fuck up.

**Edit: I know the discourse in the thread has strayed a little from this specific point, but it's something I feel strongly about.


You are reading more into the term "Murderer" than I meant to convey. Im not trying to demonize anyone.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:13 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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The role a murderer plays within a society is diametrically opposed to the function that a soldier performs for a society, which is of course why one gets medals of honor and days named after it, and the other gets scorn and the electric chair.

Murder is a threat to societal order, whereas Soldiers mainly function to enforce societal order.

Hopefully that is enough to show you the difference in a soldier and a murderer.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:13 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2000
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
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My recent post in Facebook on this subject:

Two points, connected: 1. I have been worried about the escalating tone of conservative rhetoric in this country for more at least two years now, and have said so in writing on more than one occasion. 2. This shooting in Tuscon was not a direct result of that rhetoric; at absolute greatest impact the rhetoric merely caused a guy who was already on track to open fire on someone to point his gun in one particular direction instead of some other equally tragic direction -- and even that level of correlation is not yet clear.

I feel differently about George Tiller's murder and about the mosque burnings over the last few years. Those appear to have been deliberate acts of violence and intimidation against innocent people, perpetrated in support of beliefs that are widely held and defended by more extreme members of the American right.

Jared Loughner, on the other hand, does not appear to share commonly held viewpoints of anyone and has not made a clear statement about what motivated his acts. He appears to have been so clearly disturbed as to have gotten both kicked out of college over mental health concerns and been disqualified for military within months of legally purchasing a firearm in his state.

Disconnect from meaningful human contact and adult supervision has much more to do with Loughner's act of violence than anything in the news did. People in his life were on record being afraid that he would do something like this and yet either did not or could not do anything to intervene. That same kind of disconnect had a lot to do with why the man who grew up to be branded as the Underwear Bomber was so vulnerable to radicalization at the hands of exploitative and murderous extremists in Yemen. It's also a major part of why the Unabomber was able to live in murderous seclusion for years: his family had been worried about his worldview but never connected the dots between what they say in retrospect they thought he might be capable of and what he actually began doing. Same story with the Columbine murder-suicides, and many of the other school shootings. A lot of this violence is a culmination in madness but originated in a place of isolation and despair.

My brother is a gun-owning conservative who in the last month or two has likened Obama to Hitler, joked on Facebook about wanting to use that gun to shoot somebody who had jammed up traffic on Lyndale Avenue by mishandling a car in the snow. and has talked to me occasionally about his research into the purchase of survivalist gear and supplies in the event of a total failure of government services in the next few years. Of everyone I know, I think he might be proud of my assessment that he's the single person who is the most prepared to head off into the woods and wage a campaign of armed rebellion against our government, should it truly take a turn into the kind of tyrannical and murderous totalitarianism we saw so many times in the 20th century.

My brother and I disagree extensively on politics, and have had some fairly brutal back-and-forths both here and on LiveJournal over the years. More than one person has approached me and told me they are worried that my brother will someday lose his shit and commit acts of rationalized violence against people he considers to be leftists. I have told those people that I believe my brother to be a basically moral person who subscribes to a different ideology than most of us, and that the act of violence I'm most worried about him committing is turning the gun against himself if he ultimately succumbs to the kind of deep depression that over the years has threatened me, both my parents, and several other members of my extended family.

And yet... when my brother has come up in conversations I've had with my mother over the last several months, she has more than once told me she's really worried about where his politics have gone, and doesn't know what she should do. I never have an answer for her and often in my head go to my cavalier joking with friends when I see and remark on teenage mischief: "If you see something, say something." I don't mean that when I say it, and I doubly don't mean it when I think about applying it to a member of my own family. But it means something that she has the kinds of worries she does, and is asking the questions she's asking because of it. On some level, she is afraid her child might be sick and has started looking for ways to heal him.

This is the headspace I am in after seeing and reading about the awful thing that Jared Loughner did this last weekend: Not trying to assign blame to politicians or the media, not trying to read a bunch of things into what was on Loughner's reading list or in his YouTube videos: Just thinking about my brother, and everyone in my life telling me he could easily head down that road, and the genuine tone of helpless worry I pick up in my mother's voice when she asks me how I think she should handle it. It makes me think about the friends I knew in high school and online who committed or attempted suicide.

I really believe strongly that people need to be given room to make their own decisions, even if those decisions will be mistakes. I also believe that sometimes intervention really is necessary. What I don't know is where to draw the line between those two extremes in advance, and I struggle with it. I would stop a toddler from running headlong into traffic but I haven't always stopped friends of mine from driving drunk -- and I've never even seriously considered involving the police with friends who insisted on doing that over my objections. I struggle and I don't always do the right thing, but I never stop trying to figure it out.

People who were once a part of Jared Loughner's life are probably now struggling with the memory of moments near him that they wish they could have back; I already have a few of those regrets with some of my own absent friends. If everything I believe about my brother is wrong and he does do something unthinkable, I'm sure I'll have the same kind of regrets with him.

The only thing I can think to do in the meantime is keep looking for that kind of disconnection in the people I care about, and to ask anyone who is reading this to do the same for their own lives. In tragic times like these, it's important to take a few moments to remember how much we actually need each other to heal from depression, from isolation, from despair. Caring human relationships are the last real line of defense against these kinds of descents into madness. Everything else is just damage mitigation.
Post Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:47 pm
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