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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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Location: Rochester, NY
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So if we withdraw immediately what do you think would happen to the country?
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:44 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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firefly wrote:
See Arrrgh wrote:
I think you're confusing the Iraq war with the Afghanistan war. I think it's more commonly accepted that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq (for numerous reasons) because what we are really after is/was in Afghanistan.


Nope. I was talking about Afghanistan.

So what were we after? And by "we" do you really think that our governments represent us? Do you think the Taliban posed any type of threat to the US? Do you not know about the US government's support of terrorism across the globe?

I also never said that the Taliban has better morals the the US government. I'm saying that they're not exactly the best example of morality, their actions in these wars do not represent morality and/or any goddamn fucking good for their country. Taliban is bad, we all know that but do you think that Afghanistan is better off now then before? They had no right to go in there and they have no right to be in there now.


I've yet to see the mainstream media, or the majority of the public for that matter, talk about how we were wrong to go into Afghanistan. There are problems in Afghanistan, and I've admitted that these problems exist. But you can't continue screaming "End the war" or "Go home now!" and expect anything to happen. How long does it take before you guys really get the picture that REAL problems exist in the Middle East outside of the US and ISAF's presence? Do we just pretend like these problems will go away if we just pick up and leave and let the Taliban and other fundamentalist groups reclaim the area? Is that the answer? Could their be other answers where we solve, or attempt to solve through our activism, more than just one problem?

And yes. I'm aware of the US government's involvement in much of the funding and support of groups now labeled as "terrorist" groups. However, that knowledge still doesn't mean the answer to the problem is to pick up and leave immediately. And there's no way of comparing whether the Afghan civilians were better off before our arrival, or whether they'd be better off after we leave. With the Taliban and the warlords in control of the region, how much news about the abuses women and other civilians suffer do you think really make it out of the country, or even the villages and small communities these people are confined to? Let's not pretend like just because WikiLeaks released some documents that we now know the whole story. The reason WikiLeaks has anything to release, as I've previously stated, is because our actions are documented over there. Even the bad things. The policies we have are documented. On the other side, however, there isn't going to be a lot of documentation kept and filed away by the Taliban or the other fundamentalist groups because that's not a concern of theirs. So for every story that we get from WikiLeaks, or other whistle-blowers, you have to accept that their could be an identical story that we'll never hear because these fundamentalist groups have people afraid. The reason they can speak out against us is because we can actually leave, and that will relieve some of the pressure. But when we leave, we've neither fixed any of the problems (over there, or in our own government/military), nor do we leave them in a safer position.

Charlie Foxtrot wrote:

So if we withdraw immediately what do you think would happen to the country?



I don't know if you were directing this as me or not, Charlie, but this is the exact question I keep asking the people who only have one idea (Get out now). It seems like there isn't a real answer to support this.


@ Jared

Stop being an ideologue. Seriously. You can scour that site and find as many stories against the Taliban and other fundamentalist groups as you do about the US Imperialist army. Obviously you haven't been paying attention to anything I've said, which is evident by your post about how you don't read my replies. I'm not for the military being there. I'm also not for the Taliban or other fundamentalist groups being there, either. The people on RAWA are clear that they want NEITHER. These are the people I'm worried about. Because if we just pick up and leave, they're STILL going to suffer. They'll more than likely suffer WORSE because they won't have a voice anymore because the warlords, the corrupt government, and the Taliban and fundamentalist members will silence their cries for freedom. While it's apparent the US military hasn't done a great job, you seem to take that as fair game to generalize every member of the armed forces as being a part of the problem. In reality, you don't know shit about shit over there outside of the BAD/NEGATIVE news stories that make it back to the states for you to get "Holier than Thou" about. Wake up, kid. This shit is so far beyond your, mine, or any other average citizen's understanding that to pretend otherwise is to admit your ignorant without trying to find the truth.

The story directly under your story highlights my point fairly well.

http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm

I speak up for the people who fight for the "struggle of independent and democratic forces of Afghanistan." I'm not playing Devil's Advocate just because I think you're ignorant about the things you claim to be so in the know about. I speak up for the people who will lose their voices when the ISAF, the journalists, and other international news sources leave with us. Like I said before. The only reason we hear about our own mistakes are because these mistakes (call it what you want, I'm simplifying it) are DOCUMENTED. When these things stop being documented because the Taliban, the warlords, and the corrupt government reclaim full control, it won't be because things are getting better, or because the problems have been fixed. It will just be a case as business as usual for the people (women, children, men who seek freedom and independence) who have suffered in that region for generations.


More stories:

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/10/16/taliban-kill-woman-accused-of-murdering-mother-in-law.html

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/09/28/desperation-drives-abused-afghan-women-to-death-by-fire.html

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/08/taliban-hang-a-47-year-old-woman.html


The only hope we have is FIXING our own problems. Not withdrawing so we can hide those problems until the next time the military is deployed so we can pat ourselves on the back and pretend like 10+ years of shouting slogans and protesting has done anything. It's time to think about reality instead of thinking of ways to make people think we're wicked cool because we protest the government and the bad things they do. You protest without purpose. You protest to hear your own voice through the bullhorn. You protest with unclear messages that get muddled together with all of the other unclear messages so that none of these messages matter anymore. You realize people from the Queer Action of Rhode Island group who were there for your protests had absolutely no idea what you were protesting because you're now using slogans about "Obama's War." You're too worried about seeming like the smartest, hardest-fighting activist to realize you've marginalized yourself to be as easily dismissed as your average Tea Party-er. Congratulations. You've definitely accomplished something with 10 years of shouting the same tired slogans.

Bring me more stories about the atrocities committed by the ISAF and US forces. Pretend like I'm not aware of these things so you can think you've gotten a "zinger" in by "informing" me. But don't pretend like you know the WHOLE truth. You know a portion of it, and it seems like you willingly ignore the other portions of it because they make you look like you can't adapt and change with the world around you. Wake up.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:47 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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See Arrrgh wrote:
I've yet to see the mainstream media, or the majority of the public for that matter, talk about how we were wrong to go into Afghanistan.


You're missing the point but you're right, I made a mistake. The mainstream "left" media was saying that about Iraq and about Afghanistan they would divert the subject altogether by saying "Whether or not we should have gone in there is beside the point, we're in their now and we can't just "cut and run"." Which is a big steaming pile of dog shit. To divert the issue with a cop out like "well, we're in there now" is extremely manipulative and ignorant.

You never answered WHY we're there by the way. Any idea WHY we're there?


Quote:

How long does it take before you guys really get the picture that REAL problems exist in the Middle East outside of the US and ISAF's presence?


Of course there are problems in the Middle East regardless of the US/Canadian/ETC occupation. Nobody is denying that. But A) That doesn't mean we should be there B) That doesn't mean that we're able to fix the problems and C) You're forgetting that the US (and Canada to a much smaller extent) has - for a long time - been behind the scenes in the middle east creating a lot of the problems, with their support of Israel, not to mention CREATING the Taliban.


Quote:

Do we just pretend like these problems will go away if we just pick up and leave and let the Taliban and other fundamentalist groups reclaim the area? Is that the answer? Could their be other answers where we solve, or attempt to solve through our activism, more than just one problem


It's funny how differently people see things sometimes. My answer to your question is YES (minus the pretending part). A) There is nothing that the US can or is willing to do to fix the problems. B) I don't think that they actually WANT to fix the problems. Keeping this war alive is pumping BILLIONS of dollars to defence and construction contracts.

But let's not talk about what we think/believe. Look at the actions, the facts. Has the occupation made a positive impact? Have they been respectful of the people in Afghanistan? Are American corporations making huge profits off the war? Are the American citizens going gravely into debt because of these wars? Do I have to paint a clearer picture? Please try to have a critical eye here.

Perhaps there is something that we can do to prevent more chaos/killing after we leave but I don't think there is. This war is about MONEY and POWER, it has NEVER been about FIXING PROBLEMS or any form of benevolence. So why do you keep bringing that up?


Quote:

And there's no way of comparing whether the Afghan civilians were better off before our arrival, or whether they'd be better off after we leave.


So how can you be so sure that our leaving will make things worse?


Quote:

But when we leave, we've neither fixed any of the problems (over there, or in our own government/military), nor do we leave them in a safer position.


That was never the intention. Is that what you think the occupation was about? Benevolence? To help the people of Afghanistan? Where did you get this from?
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:40 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
So if we withdraw immediately what do you think would happen to the country?


Casualty numbers will rise again and then stabalize. The country will continue to be run by lunatics. Business as usual.

It's funny how people didn't need a good reason to go in, but now that they're in we need a good reason to get out.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:47 am
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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Jared Paul wrote:
That's why I don't waste too much time arguing with this dude, Firefly. It's like he has some oppositional defiance disorder/OCD about playing devil's advocate to every possible angle, but doesn't really have a formulated opinion on any of it.

Then he'll pull some shit like this:

See Arrrgh wrote:
Check out http://www.rawa.org/women.php for the Taliban's impact on women and women's rights in the region.


If you know anything about RAWA, they are completely AGAINST THE U.S. OCCUPATION and want the U.S. OUT Afghanistan. Here's an article on their home page:
http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/05/07/lets-rise-against-the-war-crimes-of-us-and-its-fundamentalist-lackeys.html
RAWA, 07.05.2009
Let’s rise against the war crimes of US and its fundamentalist lackeys!
RAWA Statement on Massacre of over 150 civilians in Bala Baluk of Farah Province by the U.S.
Injured girl in Farah. RAWA Photo
Photobucket
(Photos of Bala Baluk Massacre) (Report and Video Clip)

As the US occupiers continue killing our innocent and sorrowed people without regret, this time they committed yet another horrible crime in Bala Baluk village of Farah Province. On 5th May 2009, the US airstrikes targeted people’s homes, killing more than 150, mostly women and children. This is another war crime but Pentagon shamelessly includes Taliban as the perpetrators too and announces the civilian deaths being only 12!

The so-called ‘new’ strategy of Obama’s administration and the surge of troops in Afghanistan have already dragged our ill-fated people in the danger zone and his 100-day old government proved itself as much more war-mongering than Bush and his only gifts to our people is hiking killings and ever-horrifying oppression. This administration is bombarding our country and tearing our women and children into pieces and from the other side, is lending a friendly hand towards the terrorist Gulbuddinis and Taliban -- the dirty, bloody enemies of our people-- and holding secret negotiations and talks with such brutal groups.

While our grieved people are burying the torn bodies of their loved ones in mass graves; the traitor lackey Said Tayeb Jawad, in his comfort in the USA, tries to dim the war crimes of his masters and about the killings of civilians, shamelessly salts people’s wounds saying, “this is a price we have to pay if we want security and stability in Afghanistan, the region and the world.”!

If his or other ignoble spies like him would lose their children and dear ones like the people of Bala Baluk, would they still become so stone-hearted and remain silent in the face of US/NATO war crimes in Afghanistan?

The only way our people can escape the occupant forces and their obedient servants is to rise against them under the slogans of: “Neither the occupiers! Nor the bestial Taliban and the criminal Northern Alliance; long live a free and democratic Afghanistan!”


Niether the occupiers. Nor the Taliban nor the Northern Alliance. Long live a free and Democratic Afghanistan.

The words speak for themselves.

You've asked many questions. Now answer Firefly's. Why are we there?

And answer me a few as well, with the rate of sexual and physical abuse in foster/state care rising (to nearly epidemic proportions) every year- the caseload for social workers goes up and the pay goes down... while the rate of poverty, homelessness, violent crime, and addiction rise and rise in poor areas- the money for public schools gets thinner and thinner (45 students per teacher in some cases) and the access to quality health care gets harder to secure...

Why do we have the right to invade and "fix" another country before our own?

The State imprisons and kills innocent Americans nearly every day, would it be just for China to try and invade the U.S. to save our people from it's violent police force, faulty justice system, or any manner of other deadly and obscene things that happen on American soil? As long as it really felt like it was doing the right thing?

And if by making jet cockpits inaccessible to the body of commercial planes, using the airport security system that Europe employs, and funneling a fraction of the resources used for the war we could secure our ports and virtually eliminate the chances of another attack, then why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars and bombing civilian villages on the other side of the world in order to "prevent another terror attack?"

Why didn't we invade New York State after the Oklahoma City bombing?

What would your stance be if the U.S. decides to invade Ecuador, Iran, Honduras, Yemen, Columbia, Somalia, Syria, or Pakistan? Do you believe that we can occupy the whole world, one country that we don't agree with at time, until no one who the CIA/DoD identifies as a threat is left?
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:28 am
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Intrinsic



Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 210
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I'll just leave this right here...

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:48 am
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Location: North Smithfield, RI
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I think everyone is in agreement that the iraq war was wrong. From what I can gather, the person who started this thread clearly agrees that policies need to be changed. If anyone thinks that because someone wants to inact actual change in our government and impact the wars overseas, and asks for more answers than just "pull the troops out now," that it somehow means they would justify the occupation of any other country... then you are clearly missing the point. It must be really easy for you to marginalize people.

Isn't the topic supposed to be how to de-escalate the war in AFGHANISTAN? Instead of talking about all the same shit about how imperialistic the white man is, we talk about actual ideas to change policy, bring troops home in a responsible manner, and figure out what will happen over there once we are gone.

It's like some people can't seem to accept that the taliban and other extremists are an actual threat over there. They are too caught up in how shitty America is to actually fix anything realistically. You know, actual ideas and proposals that wouldn't be laughed off or dismissed by the people that take us to war in the first place. It's not like there aren't examples throughout history that demonstrate the effects of sudden troop withdrawl from other countries and the powers that step in afterwards. I'd dig something up now, but I'm not on my computer and have limited time right now. Just thought we might want to return to the Afghanistan war and talk about solutions, as was the thread's intention. Classic case of preaching to the choir, I don't think there is any active member on this forum that is pro war, so let's move on.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:57 am
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Sage Francis
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Intrinsic wrote:
I'll just leave this right here...




That is fucking stupid.

I'd like to leave one tidbit of advice for future protesters. Document your events better. If the civil rights movement taught us nothing else, it should be how to utilize your resources to the best of your capabilities. That...and being organized to the very last thread of what you wear. If you're going to fight the tide, deal some knock out blows. There's too much shadowboxing going on.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:01 pm
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crash



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what a mess.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:37 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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FWIW, if you want to learn about the middle east or central asia you'd be better off checking out sources that specialize on that region rather than democracy now or chomsky. i'm fond of both but they tend to focus on the USA=bad element of any conflict in the region and they ignore a lot of other important factors. you don't have to go to the MSM either. here are some good blogs:

central asia:
http://www.registan.net/

middle east:
http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama
http://www.arabist.net/

also, anything written by robert fisk
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:16 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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crash wrote:
FWIW, if you want to learn about the middle east or central asia you'd be better off checking out sources that specialize on that region rather than democracy now or chomsky. i'm fond of both but they tend to focus on the USA=bad element of any conflict in the region and they ignore a lot of other important factors. you don't have to go to the MSM either. here are some good blogs:

central asia:


middle east:



also, anything written by robert fisk


Thanks, dude. I'll definitely check these sources out when I get home. Out of curiosity, do you have anything to contribute to the original topic(s) of this thread? I've actually been waiting for you to offer your input. I feel like I remember you and Redball having solid opinions on the "wars" in the Middle East.


@ everyone else -

I'll respond when I have more time. Probably after dinner. Firefly, thanks for being thorough. I'll definitely hit up your post when I get the chance. Intrinsic... Sage said it best.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:50 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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Also:
See Arrrgh wrote:

The only hope we have is FIXING our own problems. Not withdrawing so we can hide those problems until the next time the military is deployed so we can pat ourselves on the back and pretend like 10+ years of shouting slogans and protesting has done anything. It's time to think about reality instead of thinking of ways to make people think we're wicked cool because we protest the government and the bad things they do. You protest without purpose. You protest to hear your own voice through the bullhorn. You protest with unclear messages that get muddled together with all of the other unclear messages so that none of these messages matter anymore. You realize people from the Queer Action of Rhode Island group who were there for your protests had absolutely no idea what you were protesting because you're now using slogans about "Obama's War." You're too worried about seeming like the smartest, hardest-fighting activist to realize you've marginalized yourself to be as easily dismissed as your average Tea Party-er. Congratulations. You've definitely accomplished something with 10 years of shouting the same tired slogans.


Wow. Absolutely wow.

I know you've got some personal interest in this, like you must have some conservative family members or folks in the service or something but that was some really low shit to write and I highly doubt you'd ever say it to my face.

QuARI has members who are also in the ISO/RIMC. We actually coordinated chants from both sides of the street and were in constant contact for almost the entire duration of the action, and have worked on multiple events together in the past.

This is the 3rd or 4th time you are caught blatantly contradicting yourself and talking completely out of your ass in the same thread.


Last edited by Jared Paul on Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:12 pm
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Intrinsic



Joined: 01 May 2006
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Sage Francis wrote:
That is fucking stupid.


Whoops, my bad.

Meant to leave this:

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:37 pm
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Sage Francis
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That's a better song choice but it's not really what we're discussing here. I know it's easy to intertwine all political matters and lump them into one big "fuck the war" sentiment. For that you have re-earned the stripe that I psychically ripped off your arm, mind soldier.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:05 pm
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Intrinsic



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I was actually jumping on the anti-Obama bandwagon more than anything. Not really trying to bring in ideas from the periphery. I felt it fit with the discussion as you seem to have balked at the idea of Jared and his cohorts protesting Obama for these reasons. I'd actually to hear more on that, but maybe I'll go over to the other thread.

Also I was surprised to read you calling the Lowkey track "fucking stupid" since you have that diatribe about how one ideally makes challenging songs and accepts that people may not agree (that's why I came back with MP). All I know is it beats the fuck out of Rick Ross.
Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:25 pm
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