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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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sandman00000 wrote:
"We need to respect people's right to self determination. "

That would be nice, unfortunately there will be little to determine once extremist 'Muslims' will have an easier time of taking over villages. They don't leave much room for the people's 'self-determination'.


riiiiiiiight. the extremist muslims the CIA flooded Afghanistan with in the first place. listen to actual Afghan citizens speak in www.rethinkafghanistan.com, listen to real veterans talk at www.ivaw.org.

If the veterans who actually study history and have a conscience want us out, and the Afghan people are saying that everything is worse since we got there, and that they want us out as well... then I'm inclined to be on their side. Not Obama's, or Rahm Emanuel's, or Patraeus', or Gates, or whatever the prevailing corporate media line is.

Civilian Deaths are have been escalating for the last 4 years in Afghanistan, there are many IVAW articles on the subject, even the wiki's conservative estimate backs that up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Civilian_and_overall_casualties_.282009.29

2010 is set to be even worse.

We're not there for human rights or justice. We are there for war profiteering, opening up Afghan resources to pillaging by multi-national corporations, and strategic position in regards to global military dominance.

Not for "women's rights," and certainly not "to keep people safe from the Taliban." We've already killed more than they ever did by a long shot.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:24 pm
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SFR announcement



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 923
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See Arrrgh,

That wasn't an SFF administration edit. And if mod privileges were accessed through the "SFR Announcement" account then it was certainly unauthorized. Please feel free to re-type whatever you had there. There will be no further edits of your posts.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:28 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2579
Location: DFW, TX
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Jared Paul wrote:
http://www.projo.com/news/content/ri_obama_protests_10-26-10_V5KIN1O_v15.230b803.html
Photobucket


that almost looks like you're rocking a very sweet mullet to the far right.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:38 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI
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There's no way to calculate all of the deaths caused by the taliban and other extremists over there, so making a bold claim that we have caused more innocent deaths than them is not at all factual.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:41 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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Jared Paul wrote:
sandman00000 wrote:
"We need to respect people's right to self determination. "

That would be nice, unfortunately there will be little to determine once extremist 'Muslims' will have an easier time of taking over villages. They don't leave much room for the people's 'self-determination'.


riiiiiiiight. the extremist muslims the CIA flooded Afghanistan with in the first place. listen to actual Afghan citizens speak in www.rethinkafghanistan.com, listen to real veterans talk at www.ivaw.org.

If the veterans who actually study history and have a conscience want us out, and the Afghan people are saying that everything is worse since we got there, and that they want us out as well... then I'm inclined to be on their side. Not Obama's, or Rahm Emanuel's, or Patraeus', or Gates, or whatever the prevailing corporate media line is.

Civilian Deaths are have been escalating for the last 4 years in Afghanistan, there are many IVAW articles on the subject, even the wiki's conservative estimate backs that up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Civilian_and_overall_casualties_.282009.29

2010 is set to be even worse.

We're not there for human rights or justice. We are there for war profiteering, opening up Afghan resources to pillaging by multi-national corporations, and strategic position in regards to global military dominance.

Not for "women's rights," and certainly not "to keep people safe from the Taliban." We've already killed more than they ever did by a long shot.


Are those really the only news sources you look to for your information? You never have anything else to contribute other than "go to rethinkafghanistan.com" or "go to www.ivaw.org" or "go to democracynow.com".

All of those sources are pointed toward the left. Which means they're not as objective as you wish they were. Which means you're only getting ONE side of a multi-faceted story.

"Civilian casualties rose by 31 percent — there were 1,271 dead and 1,997 wounded — in the first six months of this year over the same period in 2009. Taliban-led insurgents inflicted 76 percent of those casualties through stepped-up roadside and suicide bombings and an assassination campaign, according to the report."
source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/08/10/98940/un-taliban-attacks-drive-up-afghan.html

Check out http://www.rawa.org/women.php for the Taliban's impact on women and women's rights in the region.

Reuters reports, through NATO, that there are fewer civilian deaths caused by the ISAF than in previous years.
source: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65I0LF20100619

"Taliban suicide bombings and other attacks caused Afghan civilian deaths to soar last year to the highest annual level in the war"
source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/un-taliban-causes-afghan-deaths-soar/
carried by: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9547704
carried by: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-01-13-taliban-civilian-deaths_N.htm

For every source you find that supports what you WANT to hear, there are plenty of sources who offer the opposite story. And this is without even mentioning the fact that a lot of the human rights infringements of Afghan civilians by Taliban and other fundamentalist groups aren't going to be documented and reported because these people are going to be threatened to not talk, are going to be dead, or are just going to be too scared to ever say anything out of fear of repercussions.

Let's not pretend like hearing what we WANT to hear means that we're being told 100% of the facts of ANY story.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:17 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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Exactly, Sherlock. We could sit here posting articles back and forth all day. And researching/tracking down info on their sources, who they take money from, who owns the outlets that publish them, and what their aims are; Reuters, AP, USA Today (an especially laughable source on anything but Sports), ABC News, Washington Times, etc. That was part of my point.

Chomsky, Democracy Now, and the IVAW are not presenting news for profit. They don't sell or make money off of advertising space. They don't post a lot of sources as "U.S. Officials" without naming their identity or what agency they're with, and they don't endorse candidates.

A few pieces of good investigative journalism make it through the corporate media scam filter, but I'd take Zinn, Chomsky, D-Now, IVAW, Harper's, The Guardian, Greg Palast, Jeremy Scahill, Naomi Klein, etc over some cropped segment shat out over the AP wire any day.

And I'd take an organization of hundreds of veterans who've actually been there and studied the War from all angles, like IVAW, over the "report" of some corporate "news" talk show host making a million dollars a year and not saying shit while cosmetic "BP: will fix this" adds play during the commercial break or over a story from my own city's major newspaper, The "Providence Journal" which is owned by a conservative corporation located in TEXAS called "The Belo Group."

There is no "Left." There is the hard fight to discern and present what is fact. Multimillion dollar news outlets will be selling different sides of the story as long as they are allowed to. That doesn't make them anymore valid or right.

We are not the opposite of the T-bags, the same way Chomsky is not the opposite of Sarah Palin. Creation Theory is not the opposite of Science. Things are either based on facts and reality, or they are not.

At the end of the day, it could all be debated into infinity. After 10+ years seeking out news from all different outlets, the sources I've listed are the ones I believe get it right the most consistently.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:17 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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Jared Paul wrote:
Exactly, Sherlock. We could sit here posting articles back and forth all day. And researching/tracking down info on their sources, who they take money from, who owns the outlets that publish them, and what their aims are; Reuters, AP, USA Today (an especially laughable source on anything but Sports), ABC News, Washington Times, etc. That was part of my point.

Chomsky, Democracy Now, and the IVAW are not presenting news for profit. They don't sell or make money off of advertising space. They don't post a lot of sources as "U.S. Officials" without naming their identity or what agency they're with, and they don't endorse candidates.

A few pieces of good investigative journalism make it through the corporate media scam filter, but I'd take Zinn, Chomsky, D-Now, IVAW, Harper's, The Guardian, Greg Palast, Jeremy Scahill, Naomi Klein, etc over some cropped segment shat out over the AP wire any day.

And I'd take an organization of hundreds of veterans who've actually been there and studied the War from all angles, like IVAW, over the "report" of some corporate "news" talk show host making a million dollars a year and not saying shit while cosmetic "BP: will fix this" adds play during the commercial break or over a story from my own city's major newspaper, The "Providence Journal" which is owned by a conservative corporation located in TEXAS called "The Belo Group."

There is no "Left." There is the hard fight to discern and present what is fact. Multimillion dollar news outlets will be selling different sides of the story as long as they are allowed to. That doesn't make them anymore valid or right.

We are not the opposite of the T-bags, the same way Chomsky is not the opposite of Sarah Palin. Creation Theory is not the opposite of Science. Things are either based on facts and reality, or they are not.

At the end of the day, it could all be debated into infinity. After 10+ years seeking out news from all different outlets, the sources I've listed are the ones I believe get it right the most consistently.


Listen, short-stack. I don't think either of us want to get involved in something as petty as a name-calling competition, so how about you drop the condescending tone when you talk to me? I'm not your girlfriend, or the little girls who think you're the bee's knees.

It's amazing to me how you attempt to marginalize any news outlet that isn't one of your "special" sources as being "corporate media," and therefore are automatically discredited because they're "selling news for profit." You don't think DemocracyNow, Chomsky, IVAW, or any of the other names you've listed are selling something? How about themselves? What do they gain from putting out articles and interviews on their side of the issue? They gain notoriety. They gain followers who eat up every word they say as fact (like you) without questioning it. You don't think the IVAW has something to sell? Their name says it all. Iraq Veterans AGAINST THE WAR. Wow. I wonder what message they're trying to sell.

I'm not saying that their opinions aren't supported by facts, just that they're as biased as any "corporate media" news outlet you like to pretend doesn't have any of the facts right. The reason you eat up their words like Christians eat up the Good Book is because they tell you EXACTLY what you WANT to hear. You do a lot of talking about people listening to conservative radio, or watching Fox News, and buying what these "reporters" are telling them, then you turn around and do the exact same thing because it's a leftist news outlet feeding you the lines that make you feel like you're in the know. It doesn't make these sources of yours any more relevant without facts to support every opinion they have.

As for your little segment about "[Creationism] isn't the opposite of [Evolution]," well... That's exactly what it is. Evolution is supported by scientific findings (facts), while Creationism is supported by a book of fairy tales. But they're opposites. Just like Chomsky IS the opposite of Sarah Palin (albeit a much smarter opposite, which means he's still an opposite to her in different regards). If something is based in fact and reality, and something else isn't, then those two things are... Opposites.

More to the point, however, is the fact that there are plenty of civilians being killed by the Taliban and other fundamentalist groups. There are plenty of women suffering cruelties at the hands of these groups because they all ascribe to a very anti-woman doctrine. Every story listed at www.rawa.org/women.php deals with how women suffer at the hands of men who look down on them. This isn't going to change if we just pick up and leave. More than likely, it's going to get worse. More than likely, a lot of aspects of Afghan life are going to get worse. You overlook this when you make your little rants about how the US is being Imperialist pigs (which I tend to agree with) because you're such a hard-line ideologue that you can't even admit that we're not the only ones doing horrible things to the Afghan civilians. You pretend like the only objective is to "Get out now!" and that afterward everything will be better. That's not the case, and continuing to push that line without ever acknowledging the truths of the situation means you're condemning a number of people to fates worse than what they're facing now. Do the people who actually want us there, or at least want the Taliban out, not entitled to gaining any of this?
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:06 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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I usually don't read what you write after the 3rd or 4th paragraph. I've now taken that down to like the 3rd or 4th sentence. You should know that before typing out another long post like that.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:11 pm
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sarah q



Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 175
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See Arrrgh wrote:
You don't think the IVAW has something to sell? Their name says it all. Iraq Veterans AGAINST THE WAR. Wow. I wonder what message they're trying to sell.


You found them out!
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:21 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI
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Jared Paul wrote:
I usually don't read what you write after the 3rd or 4th paragraph. I've now taken that down to like the 3rd or 4th sentence. You should know that before typing out another long post like that.


That's pathetic and makes you look like a real chump.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:31 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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Jared Paul wrote:
I usually don't read what you write after the 3rd or 4th paragraph. I've now taken that down to like the 3rd or 4th sentence. You should know that before typing out another long post like that.


I guess that's because you're only good at shouting behind a megaphone while you get your picture taken so you can use that to sell your image (and your next CD) as an "activist." How very capitalist of you.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:01 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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IAmNiki wrote:
There's no way to calculate all of the deaths caused by the taliban and other extremists over there, so making a bold claim that we have caused more innocent deaths than them is not at all factual.


With this reason how could one say that the people of Afghanistan will be in more danger if we pull out the troops? It is tough to calculate all the murders. Who has killed more? American and coalition troops or the Taliban? Does it make it better if it's Americans doing the killing?

I'm not saying that that's what you're saying. I mean, why do people use that reasoning to justify the occupation. Mr Arrrgs's statement about asking for a better solution then "get out now" is ridiculous. There is no further explanation necessary. The so called "left" media paints the picture that "we all know that we shouldn't have gone in there, but now that we're in, we have to see this thing through." I'm sorry but FUCK that bullshit. That is some of the most UN-Sane nonsense I have ever heard. Sometimes the complicated questions require a simple answer. If they shouldn't have gone in there, they definitely shouldn't be there now. So get the fuck out.

What right does the US have to impose it's morals on another country. And how blind do you have to be to see the US as a good example of morality.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:51 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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firefly wrote:
IAmNiki wrote:
There's no way to calculate all of the deaths caused by the taliban and other extremists over there, so making a bold claim that we have caused more innocent deaths than them is not at all factual.


With this reason how could one say that the people of Afghanistan will be in more danger if we pull out the troops? It is tough to calculate all the murders. Who has killed more? American and coalition troops or the Taliban? Does it make it better if it's Americans doing the killing?

I'm not saying that that's what you're saying. I mean, why do people use that reasoning to justify the occupation. Mr Arrrgs's statement about asking for a better solution then "get out now" is ridiculous. There is no further explanation necessary. The so called "left" media paints the picture that "we all know that we shouldn't have gone in there, but now that we're in, we have to see this thing through." I'm sorry but FUCK that bullshit. That is some of the most UN-Sane nonsense I have ever heard. Sometimes the complicated questions require a simple answer. If they shouldn't have gone in there, they definitely shouldn't be there now. So get the fuck out.

What right does the US have to impose it's morals on another country. And how blind do you have to be to see the US as a good example of morality.


I think you're confusing the Iraq war with the Afghanistan war. I think it's more commonly accepted that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq (for numerous reasons) because what we are really after is/was in Afghanistan.

As far as morality goes... Yeah, I'm sure the Taliban and their clearly negative views of women and most human rights are superior in morals than anything produced by the United States. It must be nice to be able to express dislike for your country without fear of repercussions. That's a lot more than A LOT of people have around the world.

Does this mean I support either war? No. I'm just responding to your nonsense because you're clearly not as informed as you think you are.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:19 pm
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal
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See Arrrgh wrote:
I think you're confusing the Iraq war with the Afghanistan war. I think it's more commonly accepted that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq (for numerous reasons) because what we are really after is/was in Afghanistan.


Nope. I was talking about Afghanistan.

So what were we after? And by "we" do you really think that our governments represent us? Do you think the Taliban posed any type of threat to the US? Do you not know about the US government's support of terrorism across the globe?

I also never said that the Taliban has better morals the the US government. I'm saying that they're not exactly the best example of morality, their actions in these wars do not represent morality and/or any goddamn fucking good for their country. Taliban is bad, we all know that but do you think that Afghanistan is better off now then before? They had no right to go in there and they have no right to be in there now.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:37 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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That's why I don't waste too much time arguing with this dude, Firefly. It's like he has some oppositional defiance disorder/OCD about playing devil's advocate to every possible angle, but doesn't really have a formulated opinion on any of it.

Then he'll pull some shit like this:

See Arrrgh wrote:
Check out http://www.rawa.org/women.php for the Taliban's impact on women and women's rights in the region.


If you know anything about RAWA, they are completely AGAINST THE U.S. OCCUPATION and want the U.S. OUT Afghanistan. Here's an article on their home page:
http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/05/07/lets-rise-against-the-war-crimes-of-us-and-its-fundamentalist-lackeys.html
RAWA, 07.05.2009
Let’s rise against the war crimes of US and its fundamentalist lackeys!
RAWA Statement on Massacre of over 150 civilians in Bala Baluk of Farah Province by the U.S.
Injured girl in Farah. RAWA Photo
Photobucket
(Photos of Bala Baluk Massacre) (Report and Video Clip)

As the US occupiers continue killing our innocent and sorrowed people without regret, this time they committed yet another horrible crime in Bala Baluk village of Farah Province. On 5th May 2009, the US airstrikes targeted people’s homes, killing more than 150, mostly women and children. This is another war crime but Pentagon shamelessly includes Taliban as the perpetrators too and announces the civilian deaths being only 12!

The so-called ‘new’ strategy of Obama’s administration and the surge of troops in Afghanistan have already dragged our ill-fated people in the danger zone and his 100-day old government proved itself as much more war-mongering than Bush and his only gifts to our people is hiking killings and ever-horrifying oppression. This administration is bombarding our country and tearing our women and children into pieces and from the other side, is lending a friendly hand towards the terrorist Gulbuddinis and Taliban -- the dirty, bloody enemies of our people-- and holding secret negotiations and talks with such brutal groups.

While our grieved people are burying the torn bodies of their loved ones in mass graves; the traitor lackey Said Tayeb Jawad, in his comfort in the USA, tries to dim the war crimes of his masters and about the killings of civilians, shamelessly salts people’s wounds saying, “this is a price we have to pay if we want security and stability in Afghanistan, the region and the world.”!

If his or other ignoble spies like him would lose their children and dear ones like the people of Bala Baluk, would they still become so stone-hearted and remain silent in the face of US/NATO war crimes in Afghanistan?

The only way our people can escape the occupant forces and their obedient servants is to rise against them under the slogans of: “Neither the occupiers! Nor the bestial Taliban and the criminal Northern Alliance; long live a free and democratic Afghanistan!”
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:40 pm
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