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RI antiwar group staged a protest at Obama's fundraiser
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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Jon Stewart watches D-now:
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/10/1/watch_jon_stewart_gets_haiti_news_from_democracy_now
Post Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:32 am
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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 621
Location: http://askthedead.bandcamp.com
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Tomorrow! 4 pm! Burnside Park in Providence!!!
Post Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:58 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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Anybody in the errrrreahhhh, we'll def be holdin' it down if yall wanna come out and harangue the Democrans on their expansion of War and choosing Banks over people.

Last edited by Jared Paul on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:06 am
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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Other than the questions I asked earlier, which seem to have been ignored, I have more. What do the protesters want? End the war is a nice slogan, and it's easy to shout, but it means nothing in real terms--at least not to me. Troops have been withdrawn from Iraq. This is something that Obama campaigned on. Military contractors and a smaller contingent of American military forces are still operating in Iraq. Has Obama delivered on, or taken steps toward, bringing more transparency and responsibility (or culpability) to the military contractors like Xe (formerly Blackwater)? Are all of the military contractors currently operating in Iraq (or Afghanistan) considered combatants (or "security personnel"), or are there contractors assisting the military in other areas (communications, technologies, maintenance and/or medical)? Do these individuals factor into the overall number of contractors working in the Middle East, or are only organizations like Xe considered when discussions of escalation in the region take place? Are any of these things considered by the RIMC when protests like today's are planned?

Also, "End the war" would, I assume, include Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other global operations. Are all of these supposed to end and bring about change for the good, or are anit-war protesters unconcerned about the real threats (other that military aggression and occupation by US and NATO forces) that exist in these areas? If we leave the Middle East without bringing any sort of stability to the area, what is stopping the Taliban or any other group like them from taking control in the vacuum that remains? If de-escalation is to be achieved in any successful manner, wouldn't there need to be real ideas brought to the table other than slogans shouted by one-minded people who aren't any better than the crazies on the other side of the spectrum? 

What real ideas exist for de-escalation? Does Chomsky or any of the others have theories to present, or is it as pointed as it seems to be toward the left? Everyone can point out the problems, but that doesn't fix them. The war in Iraq was a mistake of epic proportions. However, Obama made it clear with his campaign issues that de-escalation in Iraq would result in an escalation of forces in Afghanistan. He delivered on this promise, or is in the process of delivering on it. If this isn't what anti-war protesters wanted when they got caught up in the whirlwind of hype around "Hope" and "Change," then why did anyone vote for him in the first place? It's nice to think that you were voting against McCain, but two years later it seems like we're complaining about issues that Obama laid out clearly for people to question and understand. Yet there still seems to be no answers to how to fix the problem. Ending the war(s) won't fix the problems we're seeing. Ending the war(s) won't free up enough money to make too much of a difference in regards to our already over-engorged budget. Ending the war won't stop the civil liberty abuses people at home and abroad are experiencing. While shouts of "End the war!" might show solidarity with the fractions that have splintered away from each other, it doesn't really help anything. It hasn't helped anything for 10 years now. So why are we still dedicating so much energy to shouting slogans when so many questions remain unanswered? If protesters wish to gain support from the population, shouldn't they engage the public opposed to shouting at people who may or may not already have opinions on these issues?

I hope everyone who shows up to these protests get their chance to be heard in the chorus of chants, but I don't think this is going to do anything that the past 10 years of it hasn't done. This isn't the 60s, and the issue is further away from the Middle East than it seems anyone realizes. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm too far off. The money is where it all begins and ends, and until people figure out a central message to pitch for real change, we'll all still just be individuals who routinely group together to shout slogans and get our pictures taken with the same people we're always shouting slogans with. While lobbyists continue to be allowed to pay for OUR elected officials, the people will continue to be ignored on issues of marriage equality to the way we wage wars and use our military (including the contractors we hire).

(I recognize that I may be wrong on any number of things I believe. I welcome people to disagree with me. I want to know the facts on these issues, and I want to know where real change can take place.)
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:51 am
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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You're a gem See Arrghhh. An absolute gem.

End the Wars. Bring the troops home now. Recall all CIA spies and murderers from the middle east and from everywhere around the world. Respect sovereign nations right to self determination.

Not difficult concepts. Whitey should stay home, and not go around conquering for resources and geo-political power grabs. People want their tax dollars to go for roads, schools, pensions, and health care, not for Imperialism, not as a front for corporations that profit off of war to stay in business. End of story.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:07 am
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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Also, I gave you many sources and spent a good chunk of time breaking down the thought process behind this action on the first page. If you try and turn this thread into one of your 20 page essay fests actively filibustering our attempt to promote this event (which was not posted for the purpose of educating you or debating you) then you will be deleted from it.

You've made your point. Any further replies should be concise and non-redundant.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:12 am
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Location: North Smithfield, RI
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you threaten to delete someone from a thread for asking questions?

Respect for you------- there it goooooess!!!! Out the window.


He is asking VALID QUESTIONS that I MYSELF would like to get answers to, and your response is to A) claim you gave him 'plenty' of sources, when you only gave the individual two sources B) try to belittle the poster for asking questions about an organization you are here TRYING TO GET SUPPORT FOR.

I guess no one is allowed to challenge your stance on anything? Or, since that's not even what's been going on---- to challenge and explore the legitimacy and the ideas that may or may not be harbored by the organization you are in here talking about.

Don't want people to step up? Then don't post shit on here. It's not like everyone is obligated to agree and just tuck their tails between their legs because you might have someone 'deleted from a thread.'

smh.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:29 pm
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Disharmony



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
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Location: Buried in Minnesota dirt.
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IAmNiki wrote:


Don't want people to step up? Then don't post shit on here. It's not like everyone is obligated to agree and just tuck their tails between their legs because you might have someone 'deleted from a thread.'


Jared Paul wrote:
Though, I'm not really looking for folks to agree with me in this thread, but more to seek out local heads who already agree and who're interested in coming out to protest the war.


Reading is fun.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:42 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Location: North Smithfield, RI
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Disharmony wrote:
IAmNiki wrote:
ed by the organization you are in here talking about.

Don't want people to step up? Then don't post shit on here. It's not like everyone is obligated to agree and just tuck their tails between their legs because you might have someone 'deleted from a thread.'


He's not interested in your opinions, he is just trying to gather fellow like-minded individuals who would like to support the cause.

See:
Jared Paul wrote:
Though, I'm not really looking for folks to agree with me in this thread, but more to seek out local heads who already agree and who're interested in coming out to protest the war.



and so I guess wanting to know more about it is wrong in some way.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:44 pm
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Disharmony



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 3007
Location: Buried in Minnesota dirt.
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I'm gathering that the intent of this thread isn't to have a riddled debate about the war. The purpose is to inform and alert people who want to protest the war.
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:46 pm
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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I was unaware that discourse and discussion were frowned upon here. I have real questions about this issue, and I figured a good place to find a few answers might be in a thread dedicated to promoting the actions of an anti-war group. Perhaps I should have started a new thread just so I could ask questions that people checking this thread would (hopefully) respond to anyway? I'd ask these same questions if I were approached by someone on the street wishing to inform me about their call to action, especially if they're looking to gain my support for the cause.

I like how you throw more slogans at me, though. These only raise more questions, and actually cast doubt on the meaning behind the action in the first place. "Bring the troops home now"? How will that benefit our economy? It will only add more people to the pool of individuals currently looking for work, and the unemployment numbers will increase because many of these people (currently employed by the government) will be out of work. "Recall all CIA spies and murderers"? I'd like to see evidence that supports your generalization that every one of these operatives are engaged in immoral or unethical behavior on the behalf of the CIA and the government. "People want their tax dollars spent on..."? Agreed, but that's not what's going to happen just because we ended our military operations abroad. The money's just going to get funneled elsewhere so it can get used to keep the rich in power. Especially if lobbyists are still going to be allowed to sway our representatives' votes. And these slogans offer no ideas in real terms. Like I said, they're good on signs and t-shirts, but they offer nothing beyond immediate demands. How long have we been demanding the same thing now? Ten years. How much have we gained in favor of our demands? Very, very little.

As for the "many sources" you supposedly gave me, let's be correct. You gave me two sources, both of which are leftist news sources that only offer one side of the story. DemocracyNow is definitely a good place to check out when looking for news, but I like to keep an eye on multiple sources so that I don't end up thinking like a leftist version of your average Fox News viewer. If you have more sources than just these two, feel free to share. I'm looking for truth, not idealism.

Your breakdown isn't much of one. It didn't cover any of the questions I had asked, and really only established specific points about YOU, not the organization. I'm glad you're just now coming to the realization that the Dems aren't any better than the GOP. Some of us, however, figured that out a while ago. A lot of your "breakdown" is useless information about you, the individual. Really, it just seems like you like to do a lot of talking about yourself while you skirt around the issues at hand. Tone down the ego, champ, next time you answer questions about an organization for that organization.

As for threatening to have me deleted from the thread for trying to ask questions about what an organization stands for beyond their protesting, I think IAmNiki said it best. It illuminates your inability to handle discourse in any favorable way. You actually look a lot like the people you rally against. Who else tries to silence anyone who disagrees with them? Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Jay Severin, and Rush Limbaugh do this almost daily. If that's how you wish to act, then that's your right. I guess you're correct, though. I shouldn't have asked any questions about why I should or shouldn't throw my support behind this organization. You're not looking to educate me in favor of gaining support, you're just looking to make sure no newcomers show up. Same old faces with the same tired slogans means tomorrow will be the same old shit as today, like today's the same old shit as yesterday.


Last edited by See Arrrgh on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:27 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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LET'S ALL RISE UP AND DESTROY THE MACHINE!

meet us at the IHOP for pancakes and we'll begin our revolution with full stomachs!!!
Post Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:39 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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Well, we made the front page of the Providence Journal - Rhode Island section, and got a ton of other press as well. The T-bags have been getting a grossly disproportionate amount of coverage because they have an entire television network, a grip of multi-millionaires, and several actual billionaires propping them up. They also have the other major networks falling in line because their networks are based on profit, not news, and their viewership increases every time said networks run a piece on the hyper-controversial T-bags.

They succeed in pulling the whole country to the right with the tiniest of minorities because of this support, and because they start the debate from the right, not the center.

Yesterday RIMC marched on the convention center with 50-60 people in a tight, well organized block. RI Unemployed Council (from Direct Action for Rights & Equality) were there with another 25, and Queer Action Rhode Island had just about 20.

The T-bags had maybe 15. Most of whom left after our groups organized both sides of the street and dominated the most visible section of the motorcade route in the lead up to the Convention Center. Not only did many of them leave, but Obama supporters and passersby clearly saw that the organized social justice groups pushed them to leave (that you can challenge the war/social issues WITHOUT being a wingnut), and then wound up with significantly more media coverage as a result.


Here are some pics a friend posted to our list-serve, most have not been uploaded yet, but there's some decent ones here on pages 1-7:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/karynjimenez/page7/

Better stuff, and Prov Journal pics to come.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:30 am
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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http://www.projo.com/news/content/ri_obama_protests_10-26-10_V5KIN1O_v15.230b803.html
Photobucket
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:56 am
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sandman00000



Joined: 13 Jul 2002
Posts: 111
Location: Providence
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"We need to respect people's right to self determination. "

That would be nice, unfortunately there will be little to determine once extremist 'Muslims' will have an easier time of taking over villages. They don't leave much room for the people's 'self-determination'.
Post Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:39 pm
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