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The Mormon Cartoon - not exactly accurate. Thoughts?
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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2536
Location: TKO from Tokyo
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Confidential wrote:
I love esoteric, Afro-centric Christianity in small doses.

I'd like to talk more about liberation theology.


Now that I think about it, it's pretty funny that some Mormons and a Black Israelite had a spiritual cage match in a fast food restaurant. They both believe some wacky shit. Ben Ammi, the founder of the Black Israelite movement is a really weird cat.

It's too bad they couldn't get along really because they do have somethings in common; polygamy is one and crazy is the other.

I've been getting myself caught up more on it as a result of Beck's obvious lies about it. Here's Chomsky throwing down on the topic.

Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:35 am
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


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I love Hebrew Israelites too. Say what you will about their ridiculous theology, they make the best vegetarian soul food.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:42 am
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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
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icarus502 wrote:
I love Hebrew Israelites too. Say what you will about their ridiculous theology, they make the best vegetarian soul food.


I noticed they're all about vegetarianism. I just had to smile and love the huge advertisement for a brand of vegetarian ice cream called "Dream Kreme" on their website.

"Finally... There is a real choice!"
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:51 am
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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neveragainlikesheep wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
I love Hebrew Israelites too. Say what you will about their ridiculous theology, they make the best vegetarian soul food.


I noticed they're all about vegetarianism. I just had to smile and love the huge advertisement for a brand of vegetarian ice cream called "Dream Kreme" on their website.

"Finally... There is a real choice!"


Every vegetarian punk kid in the US makes a pilgrimage at some point to one of the several Soul Vegetarian restaurants in the country. I'm having fond taste nostalgia over it now, even though I'm a committed omnivore now.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:11 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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icarus502 wrote:
neveragainlikesheep wrote:


This is classic. Dude is on point.

Granted, he's being an ass, but he's still right on a lot of shit.


Ha! This guy got them. "Now you don't want to talk about this all night?!"

He's an ass, though and mighty sketchy.


I like him. If you're going to be a jesus freak at least know your shit. He tooled all over them. Given the conversation they are having I don't think he could have been much nicer.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:29 am
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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2536
Location: TKO from Tokyo
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icarus502 wrote:
neveragainlikesheep wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
I love Hebrew Israelites too. Say what you will about their ridiculous theology, they make the best vegetarian soul food.


I noticed they're all about vegetarianism. I just had to smile and love the huge advertisement for a brand of vegetarian ice cream called "Dream Kreme" on their website.

"Finally... There is a real choice!"


Every vegetarian punk kid in the US makes a pilgrimage at some point to one of the several Soul Vegetarian restaurants in the country. I'm having fond taste nostalgia over it now, even though I'm a committed omnivore now.


Apparently, the Soul Veg place closest to the Twin Cities is in Chicago. Eek. Nothing in Tokyo either, though, that's not surprising.

I'm hungry.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:29 am
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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icarus502 wrote:
neveragainlikesheep wrote:


This is classic. Dude is on point.

Granted, he's being an ass, but he's still right on a lot of shit.


Ha! This guy got them. "Now you don't want to talk about this all night?!"

He's an ass, though and mighty sketchy.


Haha oh my god. The best part was at the very end when the fat kid cuts in with "I know that Joseph Smith was the prophet. I know the Book of Mormon was true." And then the other guy goes "I don't care."

I mean. This is just so funny. This is what all churches are like. Self-reinforcing unexamined reiterations of "Hey I KNOW the church is true, you say you KNOW it too, there's no way we're both wrong especially when we feel so strongly about it!" ad nauseam.

Really? You know? Then explain how the fuck you know. If you can't explain a mathematical proof, you don't know it. Those are the normal rules of life, you stuffy ass-air sniffing sheltered Christian, Muslim, Jewish fucks. Fucking religious nutbags. Figures your kind comprises such a large chunk of the tea party. I would not be even slightly surprised if the ratio was 1:1.

While I'm at it I'd like to give a hate-filled shout-out to every other religion, none of which I have any greater respect for than this idiotic triad. Fucking cancers of society. Fuck your gods and cultural heritages. We have real cancers to cure which you superstitious morons actively prevent from happening. Give me back the scientific Greek and Arab heritages you evil ignorant oafs stole from the world when you helped collapse the empires that allowed you to develop in the first place. Dumb shits. You have so much fucking work to do before you make up for your propagation of stupidity and celebration of fear and ignorance.

If you all became scientists and each cloned one of the scientists your kind has murdered throughout history and then worked together with those clones to make a rational and moral utopia you'd be halfway there. Then you'd still need to make up for wasting our time in the first place.

Seriously. Fuck your god. Fuck your religious heritage. Fuck the teachings of your loved ones and the religious convictions of your spouses. You do so much damage with that shit and probably don't even know or care. Fuck you. Save up for a decent scientific and humanistic liberal education and learn why you're such an idiot. Then you might at least manage to become a harmless one.

I'm going to go commit some heresy now by doing homework. I'm going to read about humanity's existence as a filthy, base vessel for genes and parasites and work on a paper about religion's function as an evolutionary impetus for cooperation and murder. Then, years from now when I have my PhD, I'm going to discover a natural principle which will lead to untold benefits for your useless ass as you waste your old, sad, and probably identically ignorant death-bed years struggling to comprehend the depression you feel as a result of ~75 years of incessant uncritical suckling upon the advances of others while giving nothing back and simultaneously spitting speckles of dim vituperation against the very people you've sucked dry like an overprivileged, overweight remora with the education of the same.

The best part will be that even as my discovery makes your life easier, even the smarter ones among you will wax pseudo-philosophically about whether more and better life is a good thing, and whether good things are real things, and whether real things were put there by god or exist in our collective, apparently very well-connected imaginations, while I spend my evenings writing papers for Science about the psychological tenets that allow someone to be so utterly disconnected from operative morality, or even, indeed, reality.

Meanwhile the other ~90% of you won't even know that something new had to be discovered to make possible the fact that you can manufacture whatever food you want, with whatever nutritional makeup you want, for free, at any time, from your living room wall, or that your great-grandchildren have never had and will never experience disease, or that war and hunger and poverty no longer exist. You won't know because you won't care. You will take it for granted like you already take every other rational advance--like technology and medicine and civil society and relative freedom from arbitrary murder and even the freedom to believe in a purple leprechaun named Jesus Christ who had sex with Joseph Smith and gave birth to Yahweh who's the homosexual twin brother of Allah who fucked his own nostrils and sneezed out Apollo and the Virgin Mary while Horus climbed out his ass covered in shit that metamorphosed into Zoroaster--and as you do so you will rail against the very people who made it possible and do your utmost with your many stupid mouths and voices to make it impossible for any similar advance to be made ever again, like you do over and over again all the time in the present day.

But first I have to calculate some astronomical vectors. Promise you won't put me under house arrest and threaten me with torture and death if I don't find Kolob or any gods out there, or if I find Shiva instead of Zeus or Martin Luther or whoever the fuck you worship?

Fucking people.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:54 pm
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Mr Jenkins



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Aotearoa
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If religion is a belief system, then Science is a religion. An evolving set of beliefs passed down from scientists after proving their validity though experimentation, hypothesis and conclusions. The evolution of science itself is a testament to its follower’s blind faith. Until 1612 the followers believed the sun rotated around the earth. Before that its followers believed that the earth was flat. It took 30 years from theory to acceptance for belief in the tectonic plates. Laws of the universe are constantly being re-written. The evolution of science has now expanded the realm of physics though quantum theory, the study of the behaviour of the dualism between energy and matter. One collaborator with the great mind of Albert Einstein, John Archibald Wheeler (1911 –2008), who coined the term black hole or worm hole attempted to prove the unified field theory, where the man of science asked the question



The Question is what is the Question?
Is it all a Magic Show?
Is Reality an Illusion?
What is the framework of the Machine?
Darwin’s Puzzle: Natural Selection?
Where does Space-Time come from?
Is there any answer except that it comes from consciousness?
What is Out There?
T’is Ourselves?
Or, is IT all just a Magic Show?



This is the current resolve of science, a question which offers further questions about the reason for existence.


Now let’s compare the science masters evolving belief with that of the upper conscious. Perhaps the most famous of the upper conscious masters was Siddhārtha Gautama (563 BCE to 483 BCE), the founder of Buddhism. In the book Buddhacarita composed in 2nd century AD, poet Aśvaghoṣa details Buddha’s life and teachings. Aśvaghoṣa was a poet but his main aim is not to entertain but to instruct, to present the Buddha's teaching as the culmination of the Brahmanical tradition. Aśvaghoṣa’s answer to the science master John Wheeler’s question, posed 2000 years later



Phenomena as they appear and resound
Are neither established nor real
Since they keep changing in all possible and various manners
Just like appearances in magical illusions.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:52 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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Right.

I've already debated this with Jared Paul and futuristxen both, very carefully and civilly, in a separate thread each over the last month or two. I have no intention of debating your bad definitions or overall lack of understanding of the most basic principles of science (which does not even vaguely pretend to offer any final word or absolute truth, and basically never has since its historical inception in Democritus and his peers who lived around the same time as your poet).

My rant was a vent. My vent was a rant. I have no illusion that it changed anyone's mind. Unlike your illusion that quoting a (probably bad) poet will change mine.

Religion will get my respect when it introduces me to a god it predicts.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:00 pm
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Mr Jenkins



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buddhism doesnt belive in a god..
but yea, who cares eh
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:01 pm
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Sage Francis
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I definitely think people falsely mislabel Buddhism as a religion.
I don't think Buddhists consider it a religion but I'm sure there are people here who know more about that than I do.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:10 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


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I mean. Just to throw this out there. If you had even the slightest grasp of science you would realize that this "shifting perceptions of mind" stuff is old, I mean really old, scientific hat.

Some hypothesis in modern science postulate infinite universes springing as infinite variations of loops from a greater source which human cognition literally cannot understand in its current form. Mathematics could theoretically lead the way as a proxy form of understanding but we don't yet have even close to all of the mathematics we will need to achieve that proxy state.

More than half a century ago, even its staunchest initial opponents came to realize that quantum mechanics' basic principles of uncertainty and error govern every observation we make even beyond our base position as influential observers via data interpretation.

We right now have working technology based on quantum principles that would blow your favorite ancient Indian poets' mind and are working on theoretical and prototype computer systems that revolve around even stranger principles still.

We may eventually find that everything is made of strings of a, by definition, nearly undefinable substance. Or that our universe is equivalent to an infinitely flat sheet in a realm of infinite sheets. Your favorite Bahamut myth doesn't hold a fucking candle to this stuff and the difference is, we can theoretically determine all of this at some point in the future through means of test and observation that no poet can replicate without--gasp--doing science.

I mean, even if you took some basic philosophy class in high school you should know that as far back as Aristotle, there was a popular notion among scientists that the observable is simply the only layer we can observe or test in a potentially infinite system of layers. The great thing about being a scientist is that, instead of just saying this stuff might be and then burning people over the stake for disagreeing with it, you submit it to a public journal and the entire world of your peers for review and possible discredit, and after all of that you might even make a useful tangible benefit from that initial hypothesis.

Show me what the Jesus hypothesis ever did for anyone. Give me a lasting, demonstrably intrinsic and resilient good that arose from the prediction of your poet. I won't even make you find something as useful as vaccinations, let alone the relativistic principles that govern our technological societies! I'll take, like, "rock x is more durable for building houses than rock y by amount z".

I mean, you probably can't. But I don't expect you to. Like I said, this isn't a debate. This is me telling you how much I hate your religion for causing suffering, evil, and ignorance. I'm being unreasonably civil just by typing out this much in way of explanation.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:13 pm
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Mr Jenkins



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break, im not wanting the heated debate either, I shouldn’t have shared my beliefs on a staunch atheist site.

Im gonna put a big IMO on this, so im not seen as saying i know the truth, just the opposite.

all im saying is i believe there was/is an ancient wisdom mankind once knew, but is now lost through time and Christianization.
I don't believe in any Abrahamic teachings.
staunch nihilists are everywhere and pass their judgement as the truth because there is no proof of anything else.

call me what you will, im just saying non of us know for sure. but we can agree on the destructive role (on mankind and wisdom) of the Abrahamic faiths.

If you would like to put some links up on your 'rant' id be happy to read up
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:32 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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Forgive me. I said I wasn't debating but my nature of quantification and explanation is too strong; it overcame my initial anger.

Mr Jenkins wrote:
If religion is a belief system, then Science is a religion. An evolving set of beliefs passed down from scientists after proving their validity though experimentation, hypothesis and conclusions. The evolution of science itself is a testament to its follower’s blind faith. Until 1612 the followers believed the sun rotated around the earth. Before that its followers believed that the earth was flat. It took 30 years from theory to acceptance for belief in the tectonic plates. Laws of the universe are constantly being re-written. The evolution of science has now expanded the realm of physics though quantum theory, the study of the behaviour of the dualism between energy and matter..


This is part of the misconception of science as a "belief system", which it admittedly is. However, you've attributed the wrong systemic beliefs to science's good name, such that you think the working assumption of the nature of any given predictable or predictive phenomenon is a "belief". This is ridiculous. I'll throw in a more accurate definition of science for free, just for you and my other readers:

Science is a "belief system" only insofar as it is a belief that human observation is intrinsically error-prone, that knowledge and improvement of our condition are nonetheless possible, and that the pursuit of those possibilities, with commensurate gain of predictive and explanatory power to be applied to our collective moral, physical, and intellectual benefit, is a worthwhile goal and will, inevitably, continue to refine its predictions and conclusions forever, with ever-increasing accuracies and concomitant genitive benefits.

I made that up on the spot just now. Customized it for the benefit of my readers. It is more accurate than any dictionary.com or w-m.com definition by an order of magnitude of at least 10. Study it. Learn it. Recite it to your friends, incorporate it into your understanding of the word "science" and direct your philosophical attacks accordingly. There will be a quiz on Friday.

Now. Religion is a belief system, certainly. "Belief system" is not a religion. That is, a system of beliefs is a necessary condition for the definition of a religion, but it is far from a sufficient condition. I will not attempt to define it concretely here; even the most accomplished scientists struggle with the minutiae of the most important definitions within their own fields (What is life? What constitutes fundamental?) and to expect a neat dictionary answer is ridiculous. However, in response to this:

Sage Francis wrote:
I definitely think people falsely mislabel Buddhism as a religion.
I don't think Buddhists consider it a religion but I'm sure there are people here who know more about that than I do.


No Buddhist I have ever met has considered their belief system a religion...except for the one who had a degree in anthropology. It's a borderline religion in the traditional sense that it has no hell, no anthropomorphic gods, yadayada. It nevertheless is a system which proclaims truths that are literally unprovable; in fact it revels in this more than most religions do by denying that these truths are truths at all. Buddhists love waxing about how internally contradictory their religion is if you try to stick it within the realms of logic.

But unlike, say, a working compromise between internal, extant scientific principles (relativity and quantum being an obvious example) which we fully expect to eventually solve and in the meantime makes predictions which are accurate to magnitudes of dozens and negative dozens and perfectly describes in a demonstrable way nearly all phenomena applied to...Buddhism expects nothing of the source. It revels in illogic for its own sake, which might make it simply a wacky secular philosophy if it didn't deal so blatantly with the immortal fate of humans.

As for Buddhism not having a god, whatever. That was metonymy. Prove a Buddha, or the ultimate emancipation of a soul. Fuck, make a demonstrable prediction based on that and prove the prediction instead! No? Can't do it? Sorry man, that's part of why religions are so disappointing.
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:36 pm
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Mr Jenkins



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...

Last edited by Mr Jenkins on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:46 pm
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