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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
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ko-d wrote:
And we have these retards talking about "zionism." I can't even believe in 2010 some tard is on here talking about "zionism." The state of Israel is blasphemous and inherently anti-zionist because it was established by international treaty rather than a messiah. [b]Anybody who read anything about Israel would know that zionists were opposed to the state of Israel and to this day still are.[b]


You have your own definition of Zionism that is completely the opposite of the actual widely-accepted definition. You are claiming here that it is in fact the religious Jews, who are against a Jewish state created via human means, that are true Zionists. That is not the definition of a Zionist.

The truth is you are talking in circles. You are upset by comments you perceive as anti-semitism, when in fact they aren't. You compare the US wars against Iraq and Afghanistan as something more deserving of our attention, but do so only as a means to shift attention away from the fact that Israel is currently committing crimes against humanity. Considering your aggressiveness towards people speaking about this and your own misinformation about rather basic definitions, I'm going to go ahead and say your motive here is suspect.

You are either trolling or so tickled pink with your realization that Amerika has killed more people around the world than Israel that you've devolved into some mad egotism that has manifested itself into holier than thou Linkin Park listening High School kid rants about how "No one but me gets it!"

Either that or you are a die hard Israel fanboy. Please conjure up another delightful "stream of consciousness" answer for us. Which one are you?

Oh and lol @ your rage. No one has frothed at the mouth in this thread as much as you have. xoxoxo
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:13 pm
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redball



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Israel was not created as a response to genocides. I'll quote myself from 2008:

redball wrote:
The movement's history dates back to the 19th century, though. The plans to create Israel predate the Holocaust. The League of Nations issued the mandate over Palestine in 1922. The decision to create Israel has nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Now, the success of creating Israel has a bit to do with the Holocaust. The way they've gotten away with their actions against the Palestinians has a lot to do with it to.

The problem is that people act like there was a big conference after the Holocaust and they were like, "Where do we put all these Jews?" Then threw a dart at a map and politely asked the Palestinians to leave. It wasn't like that at all. The plan was not only in place, it was being actively executed and had a decent amount of international support. Nazism caused a large influx of Jews to Israel and the tragedy of the Holocaust helped further the cause, but it was not the reason Israel was created.


..and I'll cap it off with a reminder not to revise the history of the war in Afghanistan, which had broad international support when it started (even if the commitment of troops was less broad). While we can't say the same thing about the war with Iraq, at least that began as a war against a military and in short order we've attempted to make arrangements to cease occupation.

The same can't be said about Israel with the Palestinians. Much of the conflict there does not involve incidental harm to innocents, as would largely be the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, but rather purposeful harm. The target is the entire population, and its an ongoing occupation that involves decades of oppression.

So, while we can sit on our hands and say, "we're just as bad! Let's keep giving aid to Israel because our government is bad too and we've made mistakes." That's an ignorant way to think about things, and it looks at a tiny part of the bigger picture. There's no good reason for us to be funding Israel's constant war, especially as Israel continues to act like this and it is demonstrably bad for our country's foreign relations. There's no reason for us to continue to shield Israel from other nations whom you cannot lobby similar criticism. If we were to stop doing these things then international pressure on Israel would force them to stop the atrocities that they've carried out.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that as a populace, government, or as a forum, we cannot focus on more than one issue at a time. The media may not be able to do this, but we certainly can. We can deal with Arizona, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan all at once. Similarly, we've issued a great deal of attention to each of those topics, as I demonstrated in my last post with merely a small sample. While the members of this community largely side with the Palestinians on this topic, very few do so without thought or consideration as to the rights of Israelis and Israel's right to exist, let alone do we as a collective blame Jews in general for the actions of Israel's government and the Zionists that back it.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:24 pm
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqyfBQ-Yxdc&feature=player_embedded#!
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:06 pm
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redball



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That song seems alright and then it gets to the chorus which we could roughly paraphrase as, "don't call me antisemitic because I dated a Jewish girl once." Which is a false dichotomy, of course. Worse, it panders to those who use the classic ad hominem attack that if you criticize Israel, no matter the reason provided, you do it out of antisemitism.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:39 pm
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


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redball wrote:
That song seems alright and then it gets to the chorus which we could roughly paraphrase as, "don't call me antisemitic because I dated a Jewish girl once." Which is a false dichotomy, of course. Worse, it panders to those who use the classic ad hominem attack that if you criticize Israel, no matter the reason provided, you do it out of antisemitism.



yea im not a fan of that song but i did think it was cute though.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:46 pm
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Mr Jenkins



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ko-d wrote:
And we have these retards talking about "zionism." I can't even believe in 2010 some tard is on here talking about "zionism." The state of Israel is blasphemous and inherently anti-zionist because it was established by international treaty rather than a messiah. [b]Anybody who read anything about Israel would know that zionists were opposed to the state of Israel and to this day still are.[b]


I'm only replying as you have called me out for being a retard, because i used the term zionism in 2010.

You should have a read of the NETUREI KARTA objection to Israel, it talks about the same blasphemy, it helps clearly define Zionism, but if you know more about Judaism than them, then you are correct.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm
Quote:

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
They have their own particular, essential nature.
The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism?

Zionism is a relatively new thing.
It has only existed for a century.
Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.
The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:

FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.

SIXTH -- The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

SEVENTH -- The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.

EIGHTH -- The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

NINTH -- The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.

It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.

The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.

That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.

However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.

Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.

Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.

Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.

It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.

Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:11 pm
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Anti.Agent036



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as an american of palestinian descent, I take great offense to the fact that certain individuals (and this is not exclusive to this particular forum) label the israel-palestine conflict as "2-bit" or some sort of miniscule conflict, especially in comparison to the war in iraq or afghanistan. no conflict is 2-bit, because, in actuality what you are effectively doing is discounting and minimizing the suffering of a people. to call it 2-bit is doing a great disservice to my ancestors along with the other 750,000 people that were expelled by force, and whose lands were expropriated to establish a racist and exclusivist state based on the ethno-religious "superiority" of another people. my parents were both born in the old city of jerusalem, and they are never allowed to return to re-settle their homes. our relatives have been beaten, tortured, extorted, raped, and murdered by this "moral" army. purity of arms does not exist. this is very disheartening.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:40 pm
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mancabbage



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So kod's whole argument is basically:

"The US has done some really cunty things, Israel's behaviour is merely cunty, not really cunty, therefore why do you care?"

its kinda odd actually, there's a whole bunch of people that post here that aren't from the US, but regardless. fellas a nutcase
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:48 pm
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medicineman
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mancabbage wrote:
So kod's whole argument is basically:

"The US has done some really cunty things, Israel's behaviour is merely cunty, not really cunty, therefore why do you care?"

its kinda odd actually, there's a whole bunch of people that post here that aren't from the US, but regardless. fellas a nutcase


more earthy wisdom from the mancabb, that's why we love ya
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:57 pm
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neveragainlikesheep



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http://humanrightstv.blogspot.com/2010/06/defenders-of-mavri-mamarra.html

Defenders of the Mavri Mamarra
This item was sent by Ken O'Keefe from Istanbul at 10.00hrs 05.06.2010 and provides an eyewitness account of events on the Mavri Mamarra when Israeli commandos stormed the vessel.

by Ken O’Keefe from Istanbul

I have for many years understood that we, people of conscience, are the true holders of power in this world. Frustratingly however we have largely relinquished that power and failed to reach our full potential. Our potential to create a better world, a just world. Nonetheless I have conspired with others of like mind to reveal and exercise our true power.

In 2002 I initiated the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq because I knew that the invasion of Iraq had been planned well in advance, that it was part of a ‘Global Spectrum Dominance’ agenda as laid out by the Project For A New American Century. I knew that protests had no chance of stopping the invasion, and that largely these protests were just a way of making us feel better about the coming mass murder; by being able to say I protested against it.

With that understanding I argued that the only viable way to stop the invasion was to conduct a mass migration to Iraq. A migration in which people from around the world, especially western citizens, would position themselves at sites in Iraq that are supposed to be protected by international law, but which are routinely bombed when it is only Iraqi, Palestinian, generally non-white, western lives who will be killed. I felt 10,000 such people could stop the invasion, or at the very least, expose the invasion for what it was from the start, an act of international aggression, a war crime and a crime against humanity.

When our two double decker busses travelled from London to Baghdad through Turkey, it was ever clear that the people of Turkey also could sense the power of this act, and they were the biggest participants in it. In the end we did not get the numbers required to stop the war, with at least one million Iraqi’s dead as a result, but I remain convinced that it was within our power to prevent the invasion. A massive opportunity lost as far as I am concerned.

In 2007 I joined the Free Gaza Movement with its plan to challenge the blockade of Gaza by travelling to Gaza by sea. From the moment I heard of the plan I knew it could succeed and ultimately I served as a captain on the first attempt. The Israeli government said throughout our preparation that we were no better than pirates and they would treat us as such. They made clear we would not reach Gaza. And still I knew we could succeed. And we did. Two boats with 46 passengers from various countries managed to sail into Gaza on August 23, 2010; this was the first time this had been done in 41 years.

The truth is the blockade of Gaza is far more than three years old, and yet we, a small group of conscientious people defied the Israeli machine and celebrated with tens of thousands of Gazans when we arrived that day. We proved that it could be done. We proved that an intelligent plan, with skilled manipulation of the media, could render the full might of the Israeli Navy useless. And I knew then that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

So participating in the Freedom Flotilla is like a family reunion to me. It is my long lost family whose conscience is their guide, who have shed the fear, who act with humanity. But I was especially proud to join IHH and the Turkish elements of the flotilla. I deeply admire the strength and character of the Turkish people, despite your history having stains of injustice, like every nation, you are today from citizen to Prime Minister among the leaders in the cause of humanity and justice.

I remember being asked durýng the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq if I was a pacifist, I responded with a quote from Gandhi by saying I am not a passive anything. To the contrary I believe in action, and I also believe in self-defence, 100%, without reservation. I would be incapable of standing by while a tyrant murders my family, and the attack on the Mavri Mamara was like an attack on my Palestinian family. I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with those who refused to let a rogue Israeli military exert their will without a fight. And yes, we fought.

hen I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavri Mamara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavri Mamarra understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day.

One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution. I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun.

I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder. I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently through into the sea. I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military.

We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father. But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they.

Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go. The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murders, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really.

We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell. In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.

In conclusion; I would like to challenge every endorser of Gandhi, every person who thinks they understand him, who acknowledges him as one of the great souls of our time (which is just about every western leader), I challenge you in the form of a question. Please explain how we, the defenders of the Mavri Mamarra, are not the modern example of Gandhi’s essence? But first read the words of Gandhi himself.

" I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour."

And lastly I have one more challenge. I challenge any critic of merit, publicly, to debate me on a large stage over our actions that day. I would especially love to debate with any Israeli leader who accuses us of wrongdoing, it would be my tremendous pleasure to face off with you. All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns, so I am ripe to see you in a new context. I want to debate with you on the largest stage possible. Take that as an open challenge and let us see just how brave Israeli leaders are.
==============================================

I suggest going to the site and looking at the way he arrived in Turkey.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:02 pm
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The Count



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I remember when i used to be that guy on the board.

When I was 15 years old.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:59 pm
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Z-0



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did i just get called a "retard" because i used the word zionist? i'll need help understanding this because, ya know, i'm a retard.
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:26 pm
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breakreep
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Haha man ko-d dude I don't think you should be criticizing crash's Israel-centered or even Middle East-centered erudition. It's kind of stupid. Like telling Chomsky to read 1984.
Post Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:44 pm
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breakreep
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Confidential wrote:
ko-d wrote:


I wrote that stream of consciousness. Sorry if it's not clear.


How can you write from a stream of conciousness, then expect everyone else to argue on a higher standard of critical thinking?


Haha yeah that part stood out like a sore, leprous, phosphorescent thumb, didn't it.

Flame on, radioactive ko-d.

Oh yeah and Confidential, the rest of your post was great too. Solid stuff. I didn't quote it for spatial considerations, don't take that to mean I didn't agree with it!
Post Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:47 pm
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breakreep
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What Mr. Sheep and redball said. Basically everybody in this thread except ko-d keeps bringing the heat. Combining it into the meta-form. Roasting radioactive man. Especially this!:

The Count wrote:
I remember when i used to be that guy on the board.

When I was 15 years old.


I don't usually lol when I'm reading threads, especially not ones brimming with genuinely knowledgeable and elucidative contributions, but holy shit. I'm loling right not. Well I'm more like goling. rofgmao. gqtm.
Post Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:57 pm
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