Mark in Minnesota
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1895
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN |
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Two thoughts:
1. You and I must have had very different playthroughs. Did you have the Prothean party member in your game from the DLC? Leaving out that one character would close off significant amounts of the discussion points I'm talking about--as might leaving that character out of the party during certain key chapters.
2. I think it's important to make a distinction between content necessary to tell Sheperd's story satisfactorily versus content necessary to make science fiction fans feel like Sheperd is operating in a fully realized universe. Some of the stuff you're talking about is IMO best addressed in supplemental fiction such as novels set in the Mass Effect universe. You're talking about backstory set-pieces that would have minimal effect on player choice, and there's almost nothing that happens in ME3 that isn't either denoument of earlier player decisions or contributing material for the post-human Sheperd's final impossible decision at the end of the game--a decision echoing other impossible decisions like whether or not to spare the Rachni, whether or not to spare the Geth, whether or not to end the Krogan genophage. Sheperd is the first living being in any Reaper cycle qualified to even examine the kinds of decisions that the Reapers were created to obviate--and that is the point of the story in a much more direct way than anything to do with where the Reapers came from or why they use the tactics and the internal structure they use. This isn't to say that those questions should never be examined, just that they aren't relevant to Sheperd's story. The setting doesn't end with Sheperd; the owners of the IP have been fairly explicit that they're not done producing content within this franchise. |
Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:30 am |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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is it just me or do the newer 360 cases really suck, they randomly give my games little splinter cracks in the center of the discs, YES i press down on that center button, it still happens |
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Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:02 am |
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem |
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Mark, I had the Prothean, though I only took him with me in a few missions. While he did address his race's policy of slavery, I don't recall any moment where it was made clear that the problems of diversity this would have caused vis-a-vis the next dominant species (Asari, Turians, etc.) were in any way related to the Reaper's mission--which, as I said, was explained in my game to be the solution to the A.I. vs. organics conflict cycle.
To discuss the story itself for a moment, I want to point out that the Reapers, in the design of their solution, have created an end result that is practically identical to the problem the solution was designed to solve--i.e. an endless war between organics and what are, for all anyone can tell, some sort of machine. No race of supposedly omniscient beings could have possibly missed this irony, which is exactly why I do not buy the Catalyst's explanation that Shepard is the first organic being "qualified" to stop the genocide.
After all, what is the Catalyst if not the end product of some other ancient organic species? They had the same short-sighted, single-minded determination of any human, in that they took their experience (near destruction by their own machines) and selfishly projected it as an inevitable rule onto all other and future civilizations. To me, this looks like America's policy of forcing their version of democracy on fundamentally inapplicable cultural systems. Moreover, the truce between Geth and Quarian achievable in this game makes it clear that the Reapers' assumption is fundamentally wrong.
I agree with your second paragraph, both in the scope of the third game, and in the primary focus of the entire trilogy being not necessarily the Reapers, but Shepard's role in a galaxy molded by Reapers. However, as I've implied above, I think that the finale of this game is not just about Shepard's triumph, but also the fallibility of the creators of the Reapers--who were, after all, just some other civilization, one that happened to be born earlier than most, and took that act of happenstance as a mandate to, essentially, impose their own Manifest Destiny upon all future civilizations in the galaxy.
I say all of that out of narrative interest, not as any sort of critique. So, back to my critique. I'm aware that there are ME novels. However, I will never read these, as novels based on video games are well-known to uphold the same standard of quality maintained by video games based on movies and movies based on video games--that is to say, they are very, very, very terrible, and I do not waste time with them.
I am a Mass Effect fan in the same way that I am a Dead Space fan or a Halo fan. The games are the original venue, in which I initially developed an interest, and they remain the primary venue, by which I mean the venue into which all storytelling and other important talent is focused. Hence, the games are the only venue I care about. As far as I am concerned--both in my purchasing habits, and in the validity that I give to tie-in narrative authority--the novels, comic books, and anime do not even exist.
In at least the first manner, if not the second, many fans of these and other IPs are the same as me. To expect us to get our fill of what I consider to be essential details from some tie-in cash grab of a novella is unfair to the point of absurdity. I would rather miss out on some details than read a terribly written novel that shits all over one of my favorite universes, leaving a permanent blemish in my mind ala Brian Herbert's raping of the Dune series.
Now, I'm not interested in Mass Effect because of some conceptual burp like "A.I. vs. organics is the worst!" That is an old tale and not interesting to me in itself. The context and content are what matter to me. In this series, the context and content both revolve around Reapers. Thus, the Reapers, in particular, are what matter to me (along with many other particulars of the story, of course).
I'll attempt here to summarize this primary gripe of mine.
ME1: All about Reapers. They're a mystery, they're terrible, they're unstoppable. What are they, how do we stop them? I find this interesting and exciting.
ME2: Same thing. I am still interested and excited.
ME3: Screw it, shoot guns at the dessicated corpses of our former friends, and hope our fortuitously discovered god-blimp takes care of the actual Reapers. By the way, what are Reapers, again, exactly? Nevermind, we apparently don't care anymore. I am confused and disappointed.
I understand the poetic scope of the resolution. I just don't like it. |
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Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:22 pm |
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem |
To help you understand where I'm coming from, I'll list some of my favorite characters from various sources:
Mass Effect - Reapers
Dead Space - Markers (or their underlying intelligence)
Halo - Flood
Greek myths - Titans
Lovecraft - Old Ones
I like monsters. Specifically, I like forces of intelligence that challenge humans not just physically, but in any sort of empathetic outreach. I like the sheer alien particulars of powerful opposing forces that are clearly sentient, but largely incomprehensible to human patterns of thought.
I don't really care about robots and machines, except as a source of utility. I certainly don't care to think that a franchise I fell in love with mainly for its monsters ended up being about robots. |
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Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:43 pm |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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halo 4 is about to flip the script on ya break |
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Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:51 pm |
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem |
It better not be about robots. |
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Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:01 am |
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Mark in Minnesota
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1895
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN |
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Some more thoughts:
- The idea that some variant organic life must have deliberately designed and deployed the Reapers to perform their current/ultimate function is a little limited. Consider the "berserker" concept that Fred Saberhagen introduced: a weapon which exceeded its intended/expected function and turned on its own creators, then moved on to successor species. The existence of a kill-switch for that weapon does not necessarily imply that the creators of the weapon deliberately set it loose on the galaxy, or were able to operate that kill-switch themselves.
- Orson Scott Card's hierarchy of foreignness seems suddenly relevant to this discussion. The things you're describing as liking would all qualify as "varelse" (or perhaps "djur") in that framework. Card suggests in his writing that the thing which is compelling about the existence of "varelse" species (aliens who may be intelligent or sentient, but with whom meaningful communication is prohibitively difficult, if not outright impossible) is that when humanity comes into competition with a varelse, the only options for humanity are to wage war or to change and adapt such that communication becomes possible. Lovecraft goes further and suggests that both these options are fruitless: war isn't winnable because humanity is insignificant on the galactic stage; communication isn't possible because madness is the inevitable result of trying.
As all this relates to video games: The core functionality of video games as software is to present the player with a challenge. These days that usually means a challenge which can be overcome with skill and effort, but occasionally means a challenge which cannot be overcome (consider Tetris: there is no "victory" condition, only a high score; the final level in Halo: Reach is in some ways the same thing). Challenges are layered on top of challenges, but with player-vs-monster challenges, ultimately players must either defeat the monsters (at least in a critical battle, if not ultimately winning a war) or make peace with them for the game to have any real point. The temptation for game designers to either have the player win without understanding the enemy or have the enemy become understandable after all is likely quite high.
- I think Mass Effect as a franchise is asking some interesting questions about what, if anything, distinguishes organic life from synthetic life. The Geth are clearly robotic but they seem like they ought to sit somewhere on the list of monsters you like, particularly in Mass Effect 2 before the species has been "rehabilitated" by that quest which puts Sheperd "inside" a Geth server.
Last edited by Mark in Minnesota on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:22 am |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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its going to be mostly about the forerunners, the things that invented the flood, the halos and basicly the whole halo universe
which i think are still alien obviously, but organic robots kinda?
this is one of the new enemies
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Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:23 am |
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem |
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Actually Neuro, the Forerunners did not invent the Flood; they were surprised and overwhelmed by the Flood, and despite their advanced culture and technology could only destroy the Flood by wiping out most of their own civilization in the process.
However, I'm looking forward to the new Halo games precisely because I finally get to interact with Forerunners. That thing definitely looks robotic, but it is not trivial in a way that would cause me to dislike it--particularly because I know that species' history from previous Halo games, and am deeply excited to engage in that history far more deeply.
Mark, your post is incredibly insightful. I'd like to respond in more detail, but at the moment I'd like to simply imbibe the connection you've presented for a while longer. In the meantime, I want to let you know that I think it makes perfect sense, and am shocked that I never thought of it myself. This is why I love reading what you have to say--I appreciate your holistic approach to topics which most people would thoughtlessly dismiss, let alone think about in particular, let alone coupled to a larger picture. |
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Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:48 pm |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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they didnt invent them, they kinda sorta weaponized the flood to protect the halo rings right? but they got out of control? have you played halo anniversary yet? when you find the hidden terminals they show brand new lil story cut scenes that act as teasers/prequel for halo 4 and show a more fleshed out back story , pretty dope , im really happy with how halo 4 is looking , and all the new stuff its bringing to the story |
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Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:05 pm |
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem |
The Halo rings were actually created specifically to destroy the Flood. Flood specimens were then entombed within the Halo rings for study. Unless Halo Anniversary changed the entire story somehow (I've only seen half the terminals in that game), that's the deal. |
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Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:00 am |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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haha yup, i got that shit all mixxed up( i knew that, just had a brain fart) |
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Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:06 am |
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Brynjar
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Rivertown |
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Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:59 am |
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7240
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pretty cool
soooooo, is it an open world game or just open levels like crysis |
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Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:17 pm |
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