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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest
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I'm waiting for bombastium to get discovered.

(every atom mixed with a barrel of water makes a barrel of ice cream. Each of a unique flavor)
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:33 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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the mean wrote:
crash wrote:
however, a vegan cheesesteak does not exist, as much as they want it to. there is something proprietary about it. a vegan "cheesesteak" might taste good, but it sure as hell doesn't taste anything like the real thing and so it shouldn't be referred to by the same name.

doesn't it bug you when people refer to the black eyed peas as hip hop?

Not really.

You go ahead and make up a name for a vegan Philly cheesesteak, and I'll start using it. Just to do my part to make the world a little less hostile towards you.

it wouldn't bug you if someone was raving to you at a party about punk singer avril lavrine's latest album?
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:44 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
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crash wrote:
the mean wrote:
crash wrote:
however, a vegan cheesesteak does not exist, as much as they want it to. there is something proprietary about it. a vegan "cheesesteak" might taste good, but it sure as hell doesn't taste anything like the real thing and so it shouldn't be referred to by the same name.

doesn't it bug you when people refer to the black eyed peas as hip hop?

Not really.

You go ahead and make up a name for a vegan Philly cheesesteak, and I'll start using it. Just to do my part to make the world a little less hostile towards you.

it wouldn't bug you if someone was raving to you at a party about punk singer avril lavrine's latest album?


What you're trying to get at is the essence of food (or of punk). In my opinion nobody or no piece of music is essentially punk, things are only circumstantially punk. Avril Levigne is not punk, not because her music sounds a certain way, because music that sounds like Avril Levigne can be punk. She's not punk because of the circumstances in which she was brought up, the circumstances through which her music was produced, and the circumstances through which it is consumed. Food is much the same. There is a dish that could be called "fried chicken" in dozens of different food cultures around the world. But among the food cultures in the US, there's really only one "fried chicken" (cooking right now on my stove). Now, chicken nuggets are "fried chicken" too. So is General Tso's. Essentially, all of these things are fried chicken, but circumstantially they are not the same. Moreover, they're not all like what I'm preparing right now on my stovetop. Now, I can prepare a vegan dish that's gastronomically more similar to KFC than to the Sweet and Sour Chicken from the Chinese carryout joint and thus it will be more appropriately "fried chicken," in a certain context (next to mashed potatoes, for instance) than a fried dish made primarily of chicken meat but which has a sweet sauce and is served over rice. Does that make sense?
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:07 pm
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6497
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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crash wrote:
the mean wrote:
crash wrote:
however, a vegan cheesesteak does not exist, as much as they want it to. there is something proprietary about it. a vegan "cheesesteak" might taste good, but it sure as hell doesn't taste anything like the real thing and so it shouldn't be referred to by the same name.

doesn't it bug you when people refer to the black eyed peas as hip hop?

Not really.
You go ahead and make up a name for a vegan Philly cheesesteak, and I'll start using it. Just to do my part to make the world a little less hostile towards you.

it wouldn't bug you if someone was raving to you at a party about punk singer avril lavrine's latest album?

No. I would find it amusing.
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:26 pm
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest
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Agreement. Meateaters win you.
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:27 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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Let's name the Vegan Philly Cheesecake or whatever, the Jodie Sweetin.
"Ay o, I'll have the Jodie Sweetin, ya avril laviene luvin' motherlubbers"

I could see that happening at a Mean family gathering.
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:37 pm
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest
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icarus502 wrote:
What you're trying to get at is the essence of food (or of punk). In my opinion nobody or no piece of music is essentially punk, things are only circumstantially punk. Avril Levigne is not punk, not because her music sounds a certain way, because music that sounds like Avril Levigne can be punk. She's not punk because of the circumstances in which she was brought up, the circumstances through which her music was produced, and the circumstances through which it is consumed. Food is much the same. There is a dish that could be called "fried chicken" in dozens of different food cultures around the world. But among the food cultures in the US, there's really only one "fried chicken" (cooking right now on my stove). Now, chicken nuggets are "fried chicken" too. So is General Tso's. Essentially, all of these things are fried chicken, but circumstantially they are not the same. Moreover, they're not all like what I'm preparing right now on my stovetop. Now, I can prepare a vegan dish that's gastronomically more similar to KFC than to the Sweet and Sour Chicken from the Chinese carryout joint and thus it will be more appropriately "fried chicken," in a certain context (next to mashed potatoes, for instance) than a fried dish made primarily of chicken meat but which has a sweet sauce and is served over rice. Does that make sense?


Not if you classify foods like in the DSM or something. -Where there may be a floating range of possible attributes, but in order to classify as something it may have to contain a particular number of key indicators.
And the presence or lack of certain conditions could instantly deep six the whole (tenuous to begin with) description.
I think lack of chicken in a chicken dish might be one of those conditions. Which is not to say that the presence of chicken is an instant win either, but it clearly goes a long way.
It doesn't make sense to play it so fast and loose with descriptions except as play or culture shifting work.

Is food something to be played with as a metonym or as a metaphor? I think its most people's tendencies to work with the 'inherent' properties of things rather than their contextual ones. That's the human damage.
It's both a bogus dichotomy and a indispensable aid to communication and not getting all bugged out by the panoply.


Last edited by Raoul DeGroot on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:42 pm
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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Jodie Sweetin it is.

Unless Crash wants to suggest something else. I feel like this is harming your mental state less, Futurist, and I am really doing this for his mental health. So if he wants it to be called something else, I'll have to go with that.
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:46 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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the mean wrote:
Jodie Sweetin it is.

Unless Crash wants to suggest something else. I feel like this is harming your mental state less, Futurist, and I am really doing this for his mental health. So if he wants it to be called something else, I'll have to go with that.


Crash is a delicate flower which mush be cherished to fruition and then cruelly plucked and put on display in some sort of water based tomb. It's the only way.

Crash is like a holiday sweater, in that if you tickle him his skin will rash into some kind of secret invisible ink state department secret.
Post Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:53 pm
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codebreaker



Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 217
Location: chicago
ya  Reply with quote  

hope u dont think this is a healthy alternative to lactose based products. there is a strong correlation between modern soy production and cancer. it is in fact sooo processed and chemically derived that there are many other health related concerns becasue of its consumption - alzheimers, MS, md, and as I said cancer. modern soy production is mega cheap - hence the marketing capaign of the last 15 years as a "healthy" alternative for vegans and vegetarians for a quality protein source...

Milk aint good for ya, but id stick with the real Nog if it came down to it.

sorry for the health minute here, but a very good family friend who is a vegan has two typed of cancer diagnosed int eh last 12 months - several healing practitioners have told her that her lack of greens in her diet coboned with a heavy soy based diet were likely the primary causes of her cancers. i know there are a lot of vegans here - so just a heads up - if u are gonna eat vegan - follow the tenant of eating vegetables.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:29 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
Re: ya  Reply with quote  

codebreaker wrote:
hope u dont think this is a healthy alternative to lactose based products. there is a strong correlation between modern soy production and cancer. it is in fact sooo processed and chemically derived that there are many other health related concerns becasue of its consumption - alzheimers, MS, md, and as I said cancer. modern soy production is mega cheap - hence the marketing capaign of the last 15 years as a "healthy" alternative for vegans and vegetarians for a quality protein source...

Milk aint good for ya, but id stick with the real Nog if it came down to it.

sorry for the health minute here, but a very good family friend who is a vegan has two typed of cancer diagnosed int eh last 12 months - several healing practitioners have told her that her lack of greens in her diet coboned with a heavy soy based diet were likely the primary causes of her cancers. i know there are a lot of vegans here - so just a heads up - if u are gonna eat vegan - follow the tenant of eating vegetables.


I knew we had Truthers here but I didn't know we had Weston A. Pricers among us. Cite your claims, homie.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:32 pm
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codebreaker



Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 217
Location: chicago
ay  Reply with quote  

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NAH/is_2_29/ai_53929987/

http://articles.herballegacy.com/estrogen-levels-in-soy-based-products/

this isnt explicit fact - but is perhaps as valid as any pro-soy reserach done by any major profiteer or indirect affiliate.

not trying to create a stir but just a heads up - on a knowmore type level which i think yall would appreciate. modern diet and holistic treatment thru it is a pretty big interest of mine.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:06 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
Re: ay  Reply with quote  

codebreaker wrote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NAH/is_2_29/ai_53929987/

This article is written by Sally Euclaire Osborne. And, like any anti-soy article published, I had to wonder if the author is a member of the bizarre Weston A. Price "nourishing traditions" cult. And...

Quote:



Sally Eauclaire Osborne is a nutritionist, health educator and writer specializing in anti-aging therapies and the use of nutrition, supplements and herbs to prevent and reverse disease. She gives private and group classes, including one-day seminars such as "Secrets of the SuperYoung," "Saving Face," "The Heart of the Matter," "ADD-ing it Up,""Beating the Blues," and "The Heat is On: A Menopause Workshop. Head of the local chapter of the Weston A. Price Foundation, she holds monthly meetings where she discusses current issues in nutrition and shares information about local sources of organic, grassfed raw dairy products, free-range meat and poultry and nonhybrid organic fruits and vegetables. BACKGROUND: Sally Eauclaire Osborne, MS, is currently completing requirements for the CCN (Certified Clinical Nutritionist) credential with the International and American Association of Clinical Nutritionists (IAACN). She is an associate of the Parcells Center (carrying on the work of the legendary healer Hazel Parcells (1889-1996), an honorary board member of the Weston A. Price Foundation, and is working on her Ph.D. in Anti-Aging Nutrition at the Union Institute in Cincinnati.


Bingo!

Quote:


http://articles.herballegacy.com/estrogen-levels-in-soy-based-products/


This article is hilarious. Here's the lede:


Quote:


The question has been brought to us about the possible dangers of soy-based products relating to the levels of estrogen in them. I personally love this question because it puts so many holes in the way allopathic (traditional) medicine thinks.

In allopathic medicine doctors just look at the symptoms of the disease and treat the body as individual functions (i.e. just treat the one area where the problem is) instead of looking at the whole body. They also ignore the mental, emotional and spiritual aspects of the person. Vitalists look at all of these things and help the person cleanse and nourish all parts of the being in order to help the body itself do the healing.


In other words he "loves" the question because somehow it highlights the faults of allopathic medicine. Of course he then sidesteps the question of any evidence whatsoever of the phenomenon that anti-soy "researchers" describe *evidence is, like, so allopathic* and proceeds to not answer the question that he "loves."


Quote:


this isnt explicit fact - but is perhaps as valid as any pro-soy reserach done by any major profiteer or indirect affiliate.


Yeah, right. Anyone who says soy is not teh evil is a "profiteer" or "indirect affiliate." No, it's just that any major anti-soy "research" tends to come from an anti-science cult, dedicated to the wacky nutritional wisdom of a dentist who died sixty years ago. You're either in their cult or you're a useful idiot. You knowless, not more.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:22 pm
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sparrow



Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 331
Location: stolen land, the place where spirits get eaten.
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processed soy is wack. gmo soy is wack. spraying pesticides on soy is wack. industrial agriculture is wack.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:55 pm
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6497
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
Re: ya  Reply with quote  

codebreaker wrote:
hope u dont think this is a healthy alternative to lactose based products. there is a strong correlation between modern soy production and cancer. it is in fact sooo processed and chemically derived that there are many other health related concerns becasue of its consumption - alzheimers, MS, md, and as I said cancer. modern soy production is mega cheap - hence the marketing capaign of the last 15 years as a "healthy" alternative for vegans and vegetarians for a quality protein source...

Milk aint good for ya, but id stick with the real Nog if it came down to it.

sorry for the health minute here, but a very good family friend who is a vegan has two typed of cancer diagnosed int eh last 12 months - several healing practitioners have told her that her lack of greens in her diet coboned with a heavy soy based diet were likely the primary causes of her cancers. i know there are a lot of vegans here - so just a heads up - if u are gonna eat vegan - follow the tenant of eating vegetables.

Thanks for the heads up. Us vegans are notorious for not reading up on what we eat.
Post Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:45 pm
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