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the contortionist



Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 707
Location: Brighton, UK
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shambhala wrote:
DM wrote:
shambhala wrote:
DM wrote:
shambhala wrote:
"mobb deep's producer."

yeah. slash literally one of the most influential rapper/producers of the 90s, hands down.



It's a great song, and a classic for sure. I dont' know how revolutionary or game changing it was though.


Are you fucking kidding me? That song invented grimy, aggressive, mean-spirited, dark rap.

Crime-oriented rap has been around forever, but Shook Ones changed the complexion of what it meant to rap about violence. G Rap, Schoolly D, Eazy E, Ice T....yes people were doing it before Shook Ones, but the music itself was upbeat and sonically not much different than non-crime rap. Maybe you could say that The Chronic really broke that ground first, but even there it's more funk, synthy, dance tracks. Shook Ones was grimy...you don't dance to that song, you don't get hype, you sit down, nod your head and think about people you don't like. it's the epitome of dark and morose. That shit literally shot off a whole sound; 50 Cent wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that song.

There is nothing on Illmatic even remotely close to the vibe of that song. Illmatic is Nas sitting in the project window and looking down at what Prodigy is doing in an alley and talking about how crazy the situation is. That song is some totally unashamedly "666" shit.


That song didn't invent grimey, or aggressinve, or mean-spirited, or dark rap. It was a continuation of a sound that was already devloped.

You're all over the place here. There all sorts of dark, slow, grimey tracks (though maybe not as celebrated) that came before Shook Ones. It was a whole NY sound for a while, and it's one of the best, but you're giving Shook Ones way too much credit. And bringing up the Chronic as a comparison makes everything even way more off base.

And 50 Cent wouldn't exist if there weren't clubs, Interscope, or Eminem-- not Shook Ones.


Ya well dude, if you're going to ante up into the conversation, why don't you offer something other than "just believe me because I say so." Plz explain one song that had even close to the vibe and, more importantly, sound of that song and that was as popular as that track was.

For the record, I bought the Infamous the week it dropped. I was around for this and saw what that record did to people. It made people mean and crazy. That's true shit. I actually saw people's demeanor change after listening to the Infamous.


The Smif N Wessun album dropped about 3 months before 'The Infamous' and I think 'Bucktown' came out before 'Shook Ones pt II'. 'Throw Your Guns In the Air' by Onyx preceded both by about two years. This was slow and grimey stuff. 'Shook Ones' may arguably have taken this sound one step further but I agree with DM, the sound was already out there.
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:01 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8547
Location: Third Coast
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icarus502 wrote:
Box Johnson is correct to say that few things in art are universally agreed upon, but some things are beyond agreement/disagreement, they are the very infrastructure of what it means to like or to be. People who don't "like" Illmatic are like high school kids who hate Moby Dick or people who don't "get" abstract expressionism or "understand" Dylan. Fine, you don't enjoy these works, and that's your prerogative; there's no injunction to enjoy. But if you don't understand why they are important to the very notion of what's good about the music, then you're missing a huge epistemological piece of the aesthetic world as you know it.

And, for the record, Captiv8, to get back to the topic, you don't know it. That much is clear and I can say that without being accused of righteously accused of elitism. It's a "Letter to P"! You know something's happening here but you don't know what it is.

And that's fine, too. People are born everyday with no knowledge of Paid In Full, and I won't blame them for it until they grow up and start pontificating about hip hop on message boards.


How is this not elitism? You promulgate your own opinion ceaselessly as if it were gospel. You take a book by Melville, and you take abstract art, and you take Dylan and you say those things are cornerstones in their own respective categories. That would be fine if you were merely stating your opinion, but you take it a step further in relegating people who don't understand those things in the same context you do to high school. They're not missing a "huge epistemological piece of the aesthetic world" as they know it. They're missing out on your purview. You can't come in here and try to assign others your opinion, which you very obviously believe to be the opinion, without sounding like an elitist.

I don't dig Illmatic, true. I'd rather listen to Criminal Minded, Raising Hell, It Takes a Nation..., or The Chronic, all of which came out before. It's a preference thing, not an matter of understanding. So, for the record, I understand it, whether it's hip hop in general or Mobb Deep specifically. I just don't understand it the same way you do.
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:58 pm
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7789
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jesus christ

shut up already

its just a matter of opinion


no one is winning this war


p.s. Bonkers
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:07 pm
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Travadone



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 2977
Location: LI(f)E SUCKS (The Album)
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i was around when shook ones came out and it was dee ill sheet.

most you gon be like "o that beat from 8 mile!"
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:28 pm
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PHIL LACIO AKA P DAWG
the godfather of troll


Joined: 18 Oct 2002
Posts: 4825
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Trav, I know you like to tell people you will kick their ass in person, well if you ever cross paths with Neuro can you punch em in the face for me.
Thanks in advance.
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:15 pm
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Neuro
A champion of Kurtis SP


Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7789
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hey phil

your a big pussy




"letter to phil" - uni-brows are not fresh

(l:{l}

hehe

haha

BONKERS PHIL BONKERS!
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:25 pm
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6303
Location: the barber of hard truths
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the contortionist wrote:
shambhala wrote:
DM wrote:
shambhala wrote:
DM wrote:
shambhala wrote:
"mobb deep's producer."

yeah. slash literally one of the most influential rapper/producers of the 90s, hands down.



It's a great song, and a classic for sure. I dont' know how revolutionary or game changing it was though.


Are you fucking kidding me? That song invented grimy, aggressive, mean-spirited, dark rap.

Crime-oriented rap has been around forever, but Shook Ones changed the complexion of what it meant to rap about violence. G Rap, Schoolly D, Eazy E, Ice T....yes people were doing it before Shook Ones, but the music itself was upbeat and sonically not much different than non-crime rap. Maybe you could say that The Chronic really broke that ground first, but even there it's more funk, synthy, dance tracks. Shook Ones was grimy...you don't dance to that song, you don't get hype, you sit down, nod your head and think about people you don't like. it's the epitome of dark and morose. That shit literally shot off a whole sound; 50 Cent wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that song.

There is nothing on Illmatic even remotely close to the vibe of that song. Illmatic is Nas sitting in the project window and looking down at what Prodigy is doing in an alley and talking about how crazy the situation is. That song is some totally unashamedly "666" shit.


That song didn't invent grimey, or aggressinve, or mean-spirited, or dark rap. It was a continuation of a sound that was already devloped.

You're all over the place here. There all sorts of dark, slow, grimey tracks (though maybe not as celebrated) that came before Shook Ones. It was a whole NY sound for a while, and it's one of the best, but you're giving Shook Ones way too much credit. And bringing up the Chronic as a comparison makes everything even way more off base.

And 50 Cent wouldn't exist if there weren't clubs, Interscope, or Eminem-- not Shook Ones.


Ya well dude, if you're going to ante up into the conversation, why don't you offer something other than "just believe me because I say so." Plz explain one song that had even close to the vibe and, more importantly, sound of that song and that was as popular as that track was.

For the record, I bought the Infamous the week it dropped. I was around for this and saw what that record did to people. It made people mean and crazy. That's true shit. I actually saw people's demeanor change after listening to the Infamous.


The Smif N Wessun album dropped about 3 months before 'The Infamous' and I think 'Bucktown' came out before 'Shook Ones pt II'. 'Throw Your Guns In the Air' by Onyx preceded both by about two years. This was slow and grimey stuff. 'Shook Ones' may arguably have taken this sound one step further but I agree with DM, the sound was already out there.


yalls ears are not werkin rite. dah shinin (which is the name of the album you are speaking on), is an upbeat album. even the gun talk is slightly sarcastic. it is nowhere near the level of shook ones. please listen to "let's get it on" and then "shook ones" in succession. (let alone bucktown. are you fucking kidding me? those dudes were working off of brand nubian's boilerplate...they sampled "just the two of us" on that record...)

onyx were discovered...shit i can't remember by who right now....as a dance troupe in a bar in jamaica queens. they wore platform shoes and danced to disco tracks. true story. they are not mobb deep status. again, satire and marketing. "slam is on, get to the floor!" shook ones was a whole different level. keep it coming.

you are both wrong. deal. mobb deep invented a sound that has been as important to modern day commercial rap as anything else that came from the 90s including biggie and scarface.
Post Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:51 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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Initially, I had a difficult time getting into Mobb Deep because I felt like they were biting one of Nas's styles while lacking the depth to achieve the dynamic that Nas had on Illmatic. Yes, Nas was a mixture of Kool G Rap, Lord Finesse, Slick Rick and Rakim...but he brought it all to life in a special way. In that way, I feel like Nas is the one who changed the game while Mobb Deep ran with the ball (after dropping the Peer Pressure routine.)
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:15 am
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box johnson



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 1123
Location: Denver
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Sage Francis wrote:
Initially, I had a difficult time getting into Mobb Deep because I felt like they were biting one of Nas's styles while lacking the depth to achieve the dynamic that Nas had on Illmatic. Yes, Nas was a mixture of Kool G Rap, Lord Finesse, Slick Rick and Rakim...but he brought it all to life in a special way. In that way, I feel like Nas is the one who changed the game while Mobb Deep ran with the ball (after dropping the Peer Pressure routine.)


That's intellectually lazy.
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:29 am
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Las Vegas
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shambhala wrote:
mobb deep invented a sound that has been as important to modern day commercial rap as anything else that came from the 90s including biggie and scarface.
That may be a stretch, Bill Walton.
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:30 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21596
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box johnson wrote:
Sage Francis wrote:
Initially, I had a difficult time getting into Mobb Deep because I felt like they were biting one of Nas's styles while lacking the depth to achieve the dynamic that Nas had on Illmatic. Yes, Nas was a mixture of Kool G Rap, Lord Finesse, Slick Rick and Rakim...but he brought it all to life in a special way. In that way, I feel like Nas is the one who changed the game while Mobb Deep ran with the ball (after dropping the Peer Pressure routine.)


That's intellectually lazy.


What's lazy about that? There are a lot of people I've had this same discussion with back when Mobb Deep first hit with Infamous. I haven't seen it discussed much since then, but I figured it was worth bringing up. Without Nas knocking hiphop on its ass with Illmatic, I don't see Mobb Deep ever doing a song like Shook Ones.

That being said, an operative word in my last post was "initially." At this point I feel like Nas kick started a genetic mutation in hiphop that Mobb Deep evolved from. So rather than dismissing them for being biters (which is admittedly lazy,) I appreciate and enjoy it for the most part.

Now you're telling me...this song "Letter to P" doesn't remind you of a Nas song? At all?


Last edited by Sage Francis on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:54 am
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DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: www.NERDTORIOUS.com
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box johnson wrote:
Sage Francis wrote:
Initially, I had a difficult time getting into Mobb Deep because I felt like they were biting one of Nas's styles while lacking the depth to achieve the dynamic that Nas had on Illmatic. Yes, Nas was a mixture of Kool G Rap, Lord Finesse, Slick Rick and Rakim...but he brought it all to life in a special way. In that way, I feel like Nas is the one who changed the game while Mobb Deep ran with the ball (after dropping the Peer Pressure routine.)


That's intellectually lazy.


Explain.

Though I don't really hear Slick Rick in Nas, I agree with what's said here. Saying that Mobb Deep was spawned from one of Nas' styles isn't lazy. Saying they straight bit Nas would be.

It's safe to say that Mobb Deep wouldn't have sounded like they did if Nas hadn't achieved that sound earlier and made it blow the fuck up.
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:02 am
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6303
Location: the barber of hard truths
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they definitely ran with what Nas put on the court, but the two things to remember are A) they were from the same project in the same era and probably rapped with each other long before their albums dropped and B) if i'm not totally mistaken i think Juvenile Hell predated the Infamous (? i'm too lazy to google that right now). Nas is a better writer than either of them and I'm not going to argue that the Infamous was more influential than Illmatic (although I think you could make that case, considering nobody has been able to successfully reproduce Nas' sound whereas Mobb Deep have been bitten by everyone from Necro to 50 Cent).

Nas was always taking a birds eye view from the insanity and violence he was raised around, it's why he's been able to mature so gracefully (in my opinion). Mobb Deep tapped into something a little more ugly and gave it a voice. Anyway the initial discussion was about the song Shook Ones, which I still maintain is one of the most influential rap songs of the 90s.
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:04 am
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6303
Location: the barber of hard truths
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DM wrote:
It's safe to say that Mobb Deep wouldn't have sounded like they did if Nas hadn't achieved that sound earlier and made it blow the fuck up.


What sage said wasn't lazy but this is. Do you even understand the years and progression here? Juvenile Hell predated Illmatic (I just checked). I can't believe anybody thinks that Infamous sounds like Illmatic...are we listening to the same record? Havoc's piano chops vs. Large Pro's bass filters? It's a completely different sound. Just look at where they went. Frankly, Nas went all over the fucking map for the next decade and Mobb Deep has been consistent for their entire career. Check the catalogue. I would argue they have had a much, much more distinct style than Nas. (musically, not as writers, although love him or hate him Prodigy has style out the ass).
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:08 am
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DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
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shambhala wrote:
DM wrote:
It's safe to say that Mobb Deep wouldn't have sounded like they did if Nas hadn't achieved that sound earlier and made it blow the fuck up.


What sage said wasn't lazy but this is. Do you even understand the years and progression here? Juvenile Hell predated Illmatic (I just checked). I can't believe anybody thinks that Infamous sounds like Illmatic...are we listening to the same record? Havoc's piano chops vs. Large Pro's bass filters? It's a completely different sound. Just look at where they went. Frankly, Nas went all over the fucking map for the next decade and Mobb Deep has been consistent for their entire career. Check the catalogue. I would argue they have had a much, much more distinct style than Nas. (musically, not as writers, although love him or hate him Prodigy has style out the ass).


As lazy as crediting 50 Cent's career to Mobb Deep? And who said Illmatic sounds like The Infamous?

My point (again) is that Mobb Deep took some components from Nas' steez-- not all, but some; and that's where the comparisons were made.

You obviously love Mobb Deep, that's cool, but I think you're stretching your argument(s) to fit your intial, huge claim.

BTW Juvenile Hell is a completely forgettable rap record. It "preceding" Illmatic, or any other rap record really, doesn't mean much.
Post Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:42 am
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