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what just happened at the VMAs?
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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this one made me chuckle
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:58 am
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jehu



Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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DM wrote:
Redball: Here's a great article on Swift, http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2008/11/10/081110crmu_music_frerejones

You might not dig her songs, or care about her genre, but she is great at what she does. And she does run all her own shit. She's way better than people in her genre. I don't love any of her songs, but that doesn't mean I can't see why they're considered great.


wait, so because she writes her own tunes, REGARDLESS OF SUBSTANCE & QUALITY, she's legit?!? how is that a legit argument? she's great at the game & banking on her popularity off a shit talent show. so for that i tip my hat. many a medicore artist has gone on to be huge in their respective genre. and futur's argument that she's legit cuz she's accepted by multiple fan bases seems weak as well.
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:44 am
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DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: www.NERDTORIOUS.com
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jehu wrote:
DM wrote:
Redball: Here's a great article on Swift, http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2008/11/10/081110crmu_music_frerejones

You might not dig her songs, or care about her genre, but she is great at what she does. And she does run all her own shit. She's way better than people in her genre. I don't love any of her songs, but that doesn't mean I can't see why they're considered great.


wait, so because she writes her own tunes, REGARDLESS OF SUBSTANCE & QUALITY, she's legit?!? how is that a legit argument? she's great at the game & banking on her popularity off a shit talent show. so for that i tip my hat. many a medicore artist has gone on to be huge in their respective genre. and futur's argument that she's legit cuz she's accepted by multiple fan bases seems weak as well.


No, of course not. I think we differ in our definition of substance and quality. I think her music, for what it is, has a lot of substance and quality. I mean, listen to her songs and listen to a Jonas Brothers song-- her stuff is way more advanced.

And, I respect the fact that she's not some manufactured teen idol, but someone who writes all her own compositions, directs her stage show, and is seemingly level headed for a woman her age. And yes, that does add legitimacy.
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:27 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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I gave it another listen after reading that article, DM. I will admit, she deserves slightly more respect than I'd previously given to her, though I still think her music is far more shallow than that article portrays. I'm not at all convinced that she has staying power, and having some extra hustle on stage doesn't mean that you will turn out to be an adult star instead of another teen idol gone bust.

Futuristxen, you confuse not giving pop country a lot of listens with not knowing about it. I've sampled enough to know that most of it is terrible. There's a reason why it's so difficult for pop country stars to go mainstream, it's because there are more people who recognize how bad that stuff is than not. It's something you can't say about rock or hip hop. Don't assume ignorance on my part because I don't subject myself to too much of the stuff, if more of it was at least almost listenable like Taylor Swift then maybe I would. You're right in one respect: she's cream of the crop. My point is that it's a pretty crappy crop.
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:10 pm
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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I'm not too into country... but I heard a review for a Kathleen Edawrds album on NPR last year and DL'd the album on a whim... It's better than what I've heard from Taylor Swift.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91559075
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:59 pm
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CriticalTheory_Breakfast



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 1404
Location: NYC/Rochester
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redball wrote:
I gave it another listen after reading that article, DM. I will admit, she deserves slightly more respect than I'd previously given to her, though I still think her music is far more shallow than that article portrays. I'm not at all convinced that she has staying power, and having some extra hustle on stage doesn't mean that you will turn out to be an adult star instead of another teen idol gone bust.

Futuristxen, you confuse not giving pop country a lot of listens with not knowing about it. I've sampled enough to know that most of it is terrible. There's a reason why it's so difficult for pop country stars to go mainstream, it's because there are more people who recognize how bad that stuff is than not. It's something you can't say about rock or hip hop. Don't assume ignorance on my part because I don't subject myself to too much of the stuff, if more of it was at least almost listenable like Taylor Swift then maybe I would. You're right in one respect: she's cream of the crop. My point is that it's a pretty crappy crop.


"God is great, beer is good and people are crazy."

It takes five minutes on a country radio station to know what pop country sounds like. I know that, because I've been subjected to hours upon hours of it in my youth, and when I visit my mom its what I get. 5 minutes is all you need to be an expert. It is bad, son. Bad.
Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:21 pm
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jehu



Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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DM wrote:
jehu wrote:
DM wrote:
Redball: Here's a great article on Swift, http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2008/11/10/081110crmu_music_frerejones

You might not dig her songs, or care about her genre, but she is great at what she does. And she does run all her own shit. She's way better than people in her genre. I don't love any of her songs, but that doesn't mean I can't see why they're considered great.


wait, so because she writes her own tunes, REGARDLESS OF SUBSTANCE & QUALITY, she's legit?!? how is that a legit argument? she's great at the game & banking on her popularity off a shit talent show. so for that i tip my hat. many a medicore artist has gone on to be huge in their respective genre. and futur's argument that she's legit cuz she's accepted by multiple fan bases seems weak as well.


No, of course not. I think we differ in our definition of substance and quality. I think her music, for what it is, has a lot of substance and quality. I mean, listen to her songs and listen to a Jonas Brothers song-- her stuff is way more advanced.

And, I respect the fact that she's not some manufactured teen idol, but someone who writes all her own compositions, directs her stage show, and is seemingly level headed for a woman her age. And yes, that does add legitimacy.


i completely hear what you're saying. good discussion. always civil w/ you so thanks for that. that said, just cuz she's in charge & all the ideas are hers doesn't mean those ideas don't still completely suck and are void of originality & substance.

EDIT* she is a legitimate artist as opposed to all the other puppet pop fucks. i agree. but she's still just a shitty artist. ha.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:38 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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The argument was never whether you thought she was shitty or not, it was whether she was going to have a career longer than 5 years. And you've yet to offer any evidence to support that position that is at all couched in the context of her career to this point.

I watched a dateline or 20/20 documentary on her tour, and the massive amounts of things she conducts for her tour is pretty astounding. She runs her shit. And her live show looked like something you could get your moneys worth out of. It was a real production that she was managing every aspect of.

Her maturity at 19 is pretty otherworldy. And her skills as a pop songwriter are up there with any of her contemporaries(would say Gretchen Wilson and Miranda Lambert are her two most immediate contempories that spring to my mind).

IMO there's not a weak track on Fearless. Not for nothing but she is the fifth longest running number one album by a female artist on billboard. And the only one of those five that is a country singer. She's a cross-over success by any measure.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:59 am
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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Location: Halifax, NS
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futuristxen wrote:
The argument was never whether you thought she was shitty or not, it was whether she was going to have a career longer than 5 years. And you've yet to offer any evidence to support that position that is at all couched in the context of her career to this point.



What do you want? Newspaper clippings from 2015? Everything either of you say is "couched in the context of her career at this point" So maybe you should agree to disagree and then wait to see who wins. Maybe establish an over/under on her album sales in 2014? Maybe offer a prize to the winner?
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:40 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Inedible Condiment wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
The argument was never whether you thought she was shitty or not, it was whether she was going to have a career longer than 5 years. And you've yet to offer any evidence to support that position that is at all couched in the context of her career to this point.



What do you want? Newspaper clippings from 2015? Everything either of you say is "couched in the context of her career at this point" So maybe you should agree to disagree and then wait to see who wins. Maybe establish an over/under on her album sales in 2014? Maybe offer a prize to the winner?


I'm okay with that.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
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jehu



Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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futuristxen wrote:
The argument was never whether you thought she was shitty or not, it was whether she was going to have a career longer than 5 years. And you've yet to offer any evidence to support that position that is at all couched in the context of her career to this point.

I watched a dateline or 20/20 documentary on her tour, and the massive amounts of things she conducts for her tour is pretty astounding. She runs her shit. And her live show looked like something you could get your moneys worth out of. It was a real production that she was managing every aspect of.

Her maturity at 19 is pretty otherworldy. And her skills as a pop songwriter are up there with any of her contemporaries(would say Gretchen Wilson and Miranda Lambert are her two most immediate contempories that spring to my mind).

IMO there's not a weak track on Fearless. Not for nothing but she is the fifth longest running number one album by a female artist on billboard. And the only one of those five that is a country singer. She's a cross-over success by any measure.


and you have yet to show why she's worth listening to. whats your point? cuz she handles her own cliche bullshit? besides you, who gives a shit if she's the maturest singer EVER? and who cares if the pop world adores her? you're acting like that's a legitimate reason to think she's the real deal. because she's POPULAR? are you fucking kidding me? she's writing trite glossed over bs. and yes i've heard A LOT of her crap in this podunk town i live in & at my music store in which i work.

but lets get to the real point that you're specifically talking about: if her career lasts 50 fucking years, it wont matter, cuz it's still garbage. there are multiple artists who have lengthy careers full of hits & big time stage shows & i don't see you championing them because they SUCK. you saw a documentary about her and just accepted at face value that she does EVERYTHING herself? are you serious? i can't believe you even believed all of it. and why the hell does it matter that she breaks billboard records? does that validate her as an artist to you? and the company that you're putting her in i.e. gwilson & m. lambert are bs as well.

edit* i have to say, i like plenty of crap artists as well, but i'm not trying to convince people on sfr that they're legit just because they sell millions & control their own image & stage shows & have decent length careers.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:39 pm
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futuristxen



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What's your criteria for proving someone is worth listening to?
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:49 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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As a grown ass mang who has spent the better part of his adulthood touring all over the place, I'm a bit skeptical of the claim that a 19 year old handles all the things you say she does. I like the story, and I bet they do too (which is why it is perpetuated,) but my bs alarm is going off.

I stand in awe of arena shows. The amount of vision, preparation and bullshit that goes into throwing them is not for the whim or fancy of a 19 year old girl who lets Kanye West take the mic out of her hands during an acceptance speech.

In the great words of Principal Skinner, "Prove me wrong, children. Prove me wrong!"
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:57 pm
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Oh Daesu



Joined: 11 May 2005
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I'm not clear on the distinction between music of "depth and quality" and music that has none. How are we drawing this distinction? How is depth related to quality?



Whatever. Oh Bla. Dee.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:17 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19363
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This is the first part of the documentary on her tour, done by Dateline:


You have to consider she's been doing her hustle basically since she was ten. And she also has access to a lot more resources right now to do her own show than most would. She's been touring nationwide with diffrent acts for about five years by this point(I think the Fearless tour was her first headliner tour).

And listening to her interview, I can believe it. She seems preternaturually mature.

And I think her songwriting does a good job of meeting that character.
Post Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:21 pm
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