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Today is the 1 year Anniversary of the RNC arrest
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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hahahahahahhahahahah. That's fuckin' awesome. The riot cops get even more violent when they're actually scared of the size of a person though- girl or guy. Looks like they're getting ready for some "advanced tactics" and "justified aggression"... eyyoooo...

Last edited by Jared Paul on Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:05 pm
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prolific memorie



Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1412
Location: Pieces of my brain dripping from the wall i was leaning against,that the cleaning lady found first.
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Jared Paul wrote:
hahahahahahhahahahah. That's fuckin' awesome. The riot cops get even more violent when they're actually scared of the size of a person though- girl or guy. Looks like they're getting ready for some justified aggression... eyyoooo...



sad just plain ol
sad...
Post Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:11 pm
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Joshua Kane



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 670
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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The writing of this is so powerful that it finally motivated me to get my shit together and buy (and download) Prayers for Atheists. Dope album, in solidarity...
Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:10 pm
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Iowa City
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Jared Paul wrote:




I think Confidential hit the nail on the head. I totally respect your open mindedness and willingness to examine the facts/not fall in lock step with popular young counter culture sentiments but it's a bit presumptuous to be so sure that there was this huge movement to come to St. Paul to "riot." Especially when we've seen time and time again that they are using our tax dollars to position undercover provocateurs "all over the country" to agitate the result they want. Like scientists fudging results to match their hypothesis.

In many cases... the agent is the one who suggests the crime in question, provides the intel, and works to get the materials necessary for the act- is the driving force behind the whole action... even SLEEPS with the "criminals" and establishes a false relationship, then when the crime is done, or close to being done, they spring the arrest. And another young "felon" is left doing time.

I know that many different people from around the country were preparing for a lot of different things for a lot of different reasons. Most wanted to show up and disrupt the normal flow of the Convention, relatively peaceably; sit ins in front of buses, inserting the public opinion into the debate by making it onto the Convention floor, showing public dissent during photo op's etc. There are some who wanted to break windows/throw trash cans, etc, but I don't think any where near the majority were there for that. And I'm not comfortable even guessing how many were where for what.

And even if I were, do a couple of handful of radicals wanting to break windows and throw trash cans justify turning a city into a police state for a week, spending a couple million in tax payer dollars, and unlawfully arresting more than 800 people? It's total bait and switch and the whole thing sucks.

One thing is for sure, they reaaalllllly want us to believe that there's nationwide (world wide) web of dangerous anarchists ready to come and do harm. But they don't talk at all about their own provocateur agent programs, the Riot Gear corporations lobbying legislative changes to protocol in favor of heightened riot security, or the need to justify the threats their claiming exist... or lose funding.

Part 2 tomorrow...


I see all that and I agree. I'm not trying to detract from the fucked-upness of what happened, not trying to turn any tide in this discussion, I really just meant all that as kind of a footnote but I rarely say anything succinctly. Just think it's worth examining in the overall remembrance of this episode, it certainly caused me to do a lot of thinking. The crowd that I run or have historically ran with has something to do with me being exposed to what admittedly is surely a minority element...I've broke bread with ALFers and kids who burn churches. But I'm not being hyperbolic when I say I know at least 20 people from all over this country who converged on that city with expressed intent to cause violent civil unrest, out of frustration with the GOP and with politics at large. I know zero people who went up there simply to join in peaceful protesting. Personally. None of that is presumption, that's the facts I know. Now, crossing the line into presumption, I think it's safe to guess that these were not the only twenty people from across the country who did that, especially when I know from the people I already mentioned that this idea was circulating in Portland, and Eugune, down to the Bay area and Berkely, Bakersfield, Boulder Co, as far back east as rural Ohio and down to southern Florida. Rainbow families rolled deep to this event, some with peaceful intentions, and some less so. All I meant to say is that this fringe element has to be recognized for the role that it does play in stimulating, and then later, justifying to the masses, this kind of police response. That's why we need to acknowledge it among our own ranks, because we need to keep that in check and in it's place. Save it for when we need it if you will. My whole point is that it plays right into their hands, agents provocateur or no.
Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:10 pm
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True School Session



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 897
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I guess I don't even understand why you would go to the RNC.

If I went to the RNC to protest and raise shit this is exactly what I would expect be brought down on me. I'm not for anyone being unlawfully held, but I also stay away from places/situations where they is likely to occur.

Protesting at a place like the RNC changes nothing.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:52 am
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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medicineman wrote:
I guess my point is we would be being disingenous if we were to pretend that all the protesters were like Jared, that there weren't a good number of far-left-leaners, or anarchists, or whatever you want to call them or they want to call themselves, that organized themselves to go up there and stir the pot.


This right here is disingenuous. You are really mushing up your terms, conflating leftists with rioters, "stirring the pot" with violence, all over the place. Honestly, I think you're being absolutely genuine (having read all your posts in this thread), but your whole argument reads as police state apologetics, no matter how many times you say "I'm not trying to justify..." How many people were killed by radicals at the RNC? How many lives were threatened?

And honestly, you're really stretching my suspension of disbelief when you openly tie yourself to terrorists (church burning), ALF, and your score of friends who you readily claim conspired to riot or worse at the RNC. Who would expose themselves that way? You're claiming to have foreknowledge of serious crimes. Nobody serious would come on here and say that shit.

I call bullshit.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:08 am
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Location: Third Coast
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True School Session wrote:
I guess I don't even understand why you would go to the RNC.

If I went to the RNC to protest and raise shit this is exactly what I would expect be brought down on me. I'm not for anyone being unlawfully held, but I also stay away from places/situations where they is likely to occur.

Protesting at a place like the RNC changes nothing.


Did you read the story? Unless Jared is lying, and I seriously doubt that for a multitude of reasons, he did nothing wrong other than attend. And it's called a convention for fuck's sake. You know, so people can convene. I'm sure there were people going bananas and rioting, but from what I've heard and read the folks that Jared describes did nothing of the sort. It was a police state clampdown, arbitrary and unlawful.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:36 am
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
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Location: Iowa City
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TurnpikeGates wrote:
medicineman wrote:
I guess my point is we would be being disingenous if we were to pretend that all the protesters were like Jared, that there weren't a good number of far-left-leaners, or anarchists, or whatever you want to call them or they want to call themselves, that organized themselves to go up there and stir the pot.


This right here is disingenuous. You are really mushing up your terms, conflating leftists with rioters, "stirring the pot" with violence, all over the place. Honestly, I think you're being absolutely genuine (having read all your posts in this thread), but your whole argument reads as police state apologetics, no matter how many times you say "I'm not trying to justify..." How many people were killed by radicals at the RNC? How many lives were threatened?

And honestly, you're really stretching my suspension of disbelief when you openly tie yourself to terrorists (church burning), ALF, and your score of friends who you readily claim conspired to riot or worse at the RNC. Who would expose themselves that way? You're claiming to have foreknowledge of serious crimes. Nobody serious would come on here and say that shit.

I call bullshit.


So you both think I'm being absolutely genuine and call bullshit? Who's mushing up their terms now? Ooooooh snap! Just kidding.
Whatever man, think what you think of it. I can see how you would perceive it as police state apologetics, honestly. Reads that way to me too, I guess. To me it's more "in the world we already live in how the fuck do you think cops are going to act, justified or not so what is the point of acting that way? and how is it effective?" I'm just going to be done though, because I'm really not trying to own this thread with this shit, fuck, I just thought that this was an interesting side of it. It must not have been as widespread as all that if nobody else knew multiple carloads of borderline hobos that went and did this. And yeah, I was being a little dramatic with my phrasing about the ALFers and church burners, but I do know several ALF or ex-ALF members, and as for the church burning, well, that's kind of a funny story... (to atheists anyway) The reason why is Iowa City is kind of a minor waystation for all sorts of street people and travellers from all over the place, (was more so a few years ago) and I've met all kinds of people passing through this town, and gone back and met many again passing through their towns in turn. A lot of these people I'm referring to, I don't even know their real names. So what have I really got to be hesistant about posting? Fuck it, I'm a terrorist sympathizer then. Come get me.


Last edited by medicineman on Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:50 am
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vincinatti blues



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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happy anniversary?
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:13 am
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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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True School Session wrote:
I guess I don't even understand why you would go to the RNC.

If I went to the RNC to protest and raise shit this is exactly what I would expect be brought down on me. I'm not for anyone being unlawfully held, but I also stay away from places/situations where they is likely to occur.

Protesting at a place like the RNC changes nothing.


I disagree.

The goal of any convention protest is to publicly express opposition to the policies of whichever party is holding the convention. In this case, the Republican Party, which sought (at least) another 4 years of Bush-era unilateral, narcissist-style politics - foreign and domestic policy-wise.

Further, it's to signal to everyday working people that they're not alone in their dissatisfaction/frustration/disgust with politics and that there are plenty of people who want change and are willing to get involved in the struggle in order to make change - which, I think, is one of the single most important reasons for holding any action. "You are not alone here." People care!

Also, since all the unlawful arrests went down at the convention, people's awareness has been raised as to the suspension of civil liberties that took place all that week - and to the fact that unlawful actions like that can happen even here in America. My Republican boss was even disgusted when I told him about Jared's arrest! The issue(s) transcends ideology, to a certain extent.

I mean, if your goal for going to a convention protest is to bring about world peace and end all corruption, etc. on a single day - then, yes, it will seem as if nothing's changed.

But if your goal is to meet with like-minded people, exchange ideas, build networks of activists, create a public presence in opposition to current policies/policymakers, and show regular working people that it's okay to get out in the street to protest and make your views heard and that they're not alone in their anger, then protesting is definitely going to make a difference.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:59 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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Alan Hague wrote:


Further, it's to signal to everyday working people that they're not alone in their dissatisfaction/frustration/disgust with politics and that there are plenty of people who want change and are willing to get involved in the struggle in order to make change - which, I think, is one of the single most important reasons for holding any action. "You are not alone here." People care!



Yes. this is a good way to think about actions. Since the state-capital system relies on alienation from one another and exploits identities along race, gender, nation etc. to keep each other separated, I think protests can be really effective for breaking the social relations from parasitic to cooperative. The ability to relate this to the worker ants in a way that is accessible and undeniable is an important piece that we haven't always succeeded at. i was trying to make the point earlier about focusing on permanently dismantling the cannibalistic social relations as opposed to temporarily doing so at protests. In my experience it is very difficult to do this without coming off as an intellectual snob.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:42 pm
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
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Location: Bay Area
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medicineman wrote:


So you both think I'm being absolutely genuine and call bullshit? Who's mushing up their terms now? Ooooooh snap! Just kidding.
Whatever man, think what you think of it. I can see how you would perceive it as police state apologetics, honestly. Reads that way to me too, I guess. To me it's more "in the world we already live in how the fuck do you think cops are going to act, justified or not so what is the point of acting that way? and how is it effective?" I'm just going to be done though, because I'm really not trying to own this thread with this shit, fuck, I just thought that this was an interesting side of it. It must not have been as widespread as all that if nobody else knew multiple carloads of borderline hobos that went and did this. And yeah, I was being a little dramatic with my phrasing about the ALFers and church burners, but I do know several ALF or ex-ALF members, and as for the church burning, well, that's kind of a funny story... (to atheists anyway) The reason why is Iowa City is kind of a minor waystation for all sorts of street people and travellers from all over the place, (was more so a few years ago) and I've met all kinds of people passing through this town, and gone back and met many again passing through their towns in turn. A lot of these people I'm referring to, I don't even know their real names. So what have I really got to be hesistant about posting? Fuck it, I'm a terrorist sympathizer then. Come get me.


Haha, yeah I started out taking you at face value, and then changed my mind halfway through the post. I realized that after I finished, and decided to leave it just to show my thought process. Now I'm back to thinking you're legit, but hopelessly muddled.

Thing is, you said (approximately) "let's not pretend there weren't a bunch of anarchists and far-left-leaners going to this thing to stir the pot." So fucking what? Who's pretending? There are several layers of assumptions in your argument, some of which I don't think you're even aware of.

you said
Quote:

"in the world we already live in how the fuck do you think cops are going to act, justified or not so what is the point of acting that way? and how is it effective?"


You don't even say what "way" you're talking about acting? If you're talking about the window-smashers and 'rioters' then.... ok. But nobody is sitting here saying "police should not arrest people who destroy property." Some of us may feel ok with property destruction as protest, but I don't think almost anyone is getting indignant about an obvious crime resulting in obvious punishment.

People are outraged by those who did nothing morally questionable OR ILLEGAL getting rounded up. Claiming that all the crust punks of Iowa City were coming with chainsaws does nothing to explain or mitigate the police behavior. The job of the police is not to turn a security problem into martial law... it's to prevent and arrest perpetrators of actual crimes.

The problem I have is every single disclaimer seems to end in a "but" or "however" (at least in spirit). "I think it was horrendous what the police did, BUT..." I guess I'M making the assumption that you're on the side of justice, democracy, etc. If that's the case, I just don't see the point of doing the job of police and state spin merchants for them.

There is valid discussion and criticism to be had. There are surely tactical mistakes, strategic blunders, and ideological flaws littered throughout the whole decentralized RNC protest network. But introducing train-hopping strawmen only confuses things. Let's criticize actual people who did actual things that are 'on the record,' not anecdotal phantoms.

It just sounds like you have a shopping list of stereotypes of activists that maybe exist but are so fringe as to be irrelevant. Even among the relatively small subset of anarchists and even smaller subset of "direct action" people, the number of folks who planned to schlep all the way across the country to "riot" is surely miniscule.

P.S. Sorry for the threadjack, but I think this thread has become a discussion of the purpose and finer points of mass protest, anyway...

P.P.S Thanks for the illuminating read, JP.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:12 pm
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
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Location: Iowa City
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medicineman wrote:
I'm not trying to detract from the fucked-upness of what happened, not trying to turn any tide in this discussion, I really just meant all that as kind of a footnote but I rarely say anything succinctly. Just think it's worth examining in the overall remembrance of this episode, it certainly caused me to do a lot of thinking. The crowd that I run or have historically ran with has something to do with me being exposed to what admittedly is surely a minority element... My whole point is that it plays right into their hands, agents provocateur or no.


Alright? I'm done now. I have nothing to defend, I shouldn't even haven't posted anything, I guess. I overstated obviously my conspiracy to riot bit. Still think it's true in certain circles. That is what my memory of this event will always be, that's the side of it that I was exposed to, friends of mine getting hyped over poorly thought through politics and playing soldier for a few weeks so they could go "fuck the system." And in the end I thought it was stupid and harmful on their part. That's it.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:53 pm
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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medicineman wrote:
medicineman wrote:
I'm not trying to detract from the fucked-upness of what happened, not trying to turn any tide in this discussion, I really just meant all that as kind of a footnote but I rarely say anything succinctly. Just think it's worth examining in the overall remembrance of this episode, it certainly caused me to do a lot of thinking. The crowd that I run or have historically ran with has something to do with me being exposed to what admittedly is surely a minority element... My whole point is that it plays right into their hands, agents provocateur or no.


Alright? I'm done now. I have nothing to defend, I shouldn't even haven't posted anything, I guess. I overstated obviously my conspiracy to riot bit. Still think it's true in certain circles. That is what my memory of this event will always be, that's the side of it that I was exposed to, friends of mine getting hyped over poorly thought through politics and playing soldier for a few weeks so they could go "fuck the system." And in the end I thought it was stupid and harmful on their part. That's it.


Hey, it's cool. I agree with you on that point. I think the kind of attitude you describe is stupid and harmful, too. Don't feel so attacked though... sorry I used snide words about you... probably exacerbated the feeling that I'm hating, but I'm really just disagreeing. I take back "bullshit" and "hopelessly muddled". Friends?

(Still disagree in general, of course.)
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:38 pm
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Majawala



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so police should be arresting the people who are actually doing stupid shit. possibly not in their job description.
Post Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:06 pm
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