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So... what's up with healthcare exactly?
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5453
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
Re: So... what's up with healthcare exactly?  Reply with quote  

jstile wrote:
Do these people really look at other countries' healthcare systems and go, "no, I think we're happy with ours even though it doesn't really help out the poor"

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/americans_fear_canadas_health-.html

the main problem here is that americans are so inward looking and cocky that they don't think they have anything to learn from other country's systems. it's hardly even discussed.

a majority of americans still support universal care. but somehow, while supporting universal care, they also oppose obama's plan more than they like it. the disconnect is ridiculous. it really shows the effectiveness of the republican machine.

this bill is going to end up being so watered down it'll be pretty much ineffective. so when it fails republicans can point their fingers at the dems and blame them for failing to fix the system. it's pretty fucking frustrating.

the idea that private care is more efficent than public is ridiculous. france pays HALF as much per person to provide UNIVERSAL care and has far better health indicators than the US.

you know who does get universal care? our veterans. seems to work for them pretty well.

someone told me they saw a clip of some guy at a townhall meeting shouting at a congressman to "keep the government's dirty hands off his medicare". that's where we are.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:10 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver
Re: So... what's up with healthcare exactly?  Reply with quote  

crash wrote:

you know who does get universal care? our veterans. seems to work for them pretty well.

someone told me they saw a clip of some guy at a townhall meeting shouting at a congressman to "keep the government's dirty hands off his medicare". that's where we are.


I love the veteran's argument. If you want to really take care of someone, you give them complete health coverage... that's just the way it's gotta be.

And yeah, that story is ridiculous. I would probably puke with rage if I saw that live.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:15 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
Re: So... what's up with healthcare exactly?  Reply with quote  

crash wrote:


a majority of americans still support universal care. but somehow, while supporting universal care, they also oppose obama's plan more than they like it. the disconnect is ridiculous. it really shows the effectiveness of the republican machine.



That's definitely the vibe I got from the report I saw. I don't pretend to know much about the system, and I'm not trying to shit on or make sweeping generalisations about the US here, but there seems to be this huge perception of entitlement going on.

In a way it's fucking identical to all the shit that's going on with the banking/financial sector: you (actually, we're just as complicit in this as well) want the economy to be all hunky-dory like it was before, without really realising that it was the mass greed and consumerism endemic in the previous system that led to its collapse. The healthcare debate looks like it's got the same aura to it: you guys want universal healthcare the same way you want banking reform. In principle. When it actually comes to giving something up for the greater good then no-one (or not enough people, anyway) really have the stones to see it through.

Like I said, this isn't just me shitting on the US. Every population in the western world and even further afield carries this mentality into at least one aspect of their national policy.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:18 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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i can't speak for anyone, but you can go ahead and shit on the US about healthcare. we're fucking morons when it comes to taking care of our own.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:22 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Agreed... it's just so ridiculous that "the most prosperous nation in the world" has such a shitty system and doesn't take care of its own citizens to the level that other democratic powers do. That's why I get so fucking mad talking about this, it's just common sense but they manage to derail it with their bullshit regardless. People fall for this shit far too easily and I thought they might've learned after 8 years of Bush, but I fucking guess not. Same ol tricks.. call it "Obamacare" instead of "public health care" and trick people who don't like Obama into thinking it's a meritless idea.

Shit away, Europe. We'll probably get pink eye, but we won't go to the doctor because it's too fucking expensive.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:25 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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Location: London
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@crash

Nah man, I don't go for that. I have my opinions, but I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of what's going on over there. I don't want to disparage things I don't fully understand, I'd rather give an opinion in as level a way as I can.

Guy 1: Mate, my mum's a bitch
Guy 2: Haha yeh, your mum is a bitch
Guy 1: Don't ever say that shit about my mum
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:26 pm
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McTools



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 181
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jstile wrote:


European healthcare is 'so good' because we pay a hell of a lot more tax than you mate. I earn the equivalent of $25000/annum, and I pay 22% income tax. If you want universal healthcare, you have to pay for it. Sorry man, them's the breaks.


I understand, but what I'm saying is we already pay that money, it just goes to blowing up schools across the world instead of building them at home. It goes to putting people in critical condition instead of helping them come out of it. It's interesting that me and Jared posted two minutes apart,

Jared Paul wrote:

Taxes wouldn't have to be raised at all if they took the money out of the bloated military budget and tabulated in the difference between what american citizens would save in insurance premiums, etc.

More people than ever know about and want a Universal Health Care plan; more people than ever understand that Single Payer isn't a hand out, it's people using their own tax dollars to pay for quality medical care through a federal program.


That's what I'm talking about, I'm not going to pay them for their own version of Kaiser Permanente. Between the war, weapons research, and all their covert ops, you can find money to help your people instead of shiting on them. It was good old Dwight that said, "we pay for a single destroyer with money that could have built new homes for more than 8,000 people, we pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat, this is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouded threat of war it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron." Like I said, fuck the war, pay my medical bills!
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:44 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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providing universal care wouldn't be more expensive overall. any tax increase would be off-set by a reduction in the cost to businesses and individuals. i wouldn't mind a reduction in "defence" spending but we don't even need to go there in the healthcare debate.

you know how many people use emergency rooms as their primary source of care? if care was free, they'd address problems early on when it's cheap instead of waiting until it's a crisis and the costs for treatment are way higher. preventive care is the name of the game.

the main sacrifice in a universal plan is that the best of the best care disappears. the richest among us lose their top-notch health care because everyone's getting the same sort of treatment. the fact is the US has the best health care in the world IF YOU HAVE LOTS OF MONEY. republicans and blue dog democrats like to repeat that last sentence without the part in all caps. they point out that people from all over the world come to us for treatment without acknowledging that this is only possible for the rich. but fuck them. why should the rich get the best care and the poor get no care when we could provide decent care for everyone with the same cost?

the other misleading phrase the conservatives like to through around is "rationed care". apparently in the public option if something is really expensive and will only extend your life 3 months they won't do it. so yeah, that sorta sucks. but again, what they forget to add is that we all ready have rationed care, except it's called "10% of americans aren't insured".

the main problem here is that the dems are almost as beholden to the insurance industry as the repubs. it's totally fucked. americans refuse to look outside their borders at what the rest of the world is doing and allow big business to control the government and sell us shitty expensive care because it appeals to our ideals of competition and free enterprise.

get over yourself america. you are not a special case. you are not inherently different than every other country. you just got a harsh lesson on why less government and deregulation is a bad idea in the economic sector. don't let those bastards pull another one over on you with health care.

they said hillary over reached, but obama's plan is too soft. i guess they're just pushing through the best thing they can get passed, but it's pretty pathetic.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:14 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1971
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
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crash wrote:
if care was free, they'd address problems early on when it's cheap instead of waiting until it's a crisis and the costs for treatment are way higher.


This may be true in some cases, but if it were universally true, you wouldn't see people with dental insurance skip cleanings and only go to the dentist when they need fillings, root canals, crowns, etc. In the real world that kind of thing happens all the time, even with primary care physicians -- people with insurance routinely skip physicals, ignore basic medical advice, and show up in the urgent care clinics and emergency rooms suffering from medical crises that could have been prevented. It's not co-pays or deductibles keeping people from doing that stuff, at least not always. Sometimes we just simply fail to act in our own best interest out of apathy or laziness or ignorance.

It's not sufficient for care to be free; you also need to create incentives for participants (both consumers and providers) to focus on preventative care. This is arguably easier in the current system than it would be in a single-payer system -- but at too high a cost. In the current system, people who ignore basic preventative care tend to end up (literally, or at least effectively) uninsured after a relatively small number of ambulance trips and emergency room visits. Insurance companies don't keep habitual emergency room users on their books unless they absolutely have to.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:46 pm
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neveragainlikesheep



Joined: 22 May 2008
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I've been battling with my old highschool friends on facebook for the better part of a week. I've put the ground rules as: no talking points (they fucking love using these and I love debunking them as right wing talking points) and all arguments must be backed up factual (!) evidence. They aren't doing very well.

I've yet to see a very cohesive argument, but the "arguments" I have seen are these:

*according to the CBO 15 million employees of small business will lose their health care and will be forced to take on "government insurance" - debunked as a right wing talking point which took a quote from the CBO about the HELP bill out of context and applied it to HR3200.

*it's socialism - telling them that publicly-funded health insurance was first advocated a hundred years ago by Republican president Theodore Roosevelt tends to shut them up.

*a truly free and open market will solve all our problems - which flies in the face of the banking crisis meltdown we just dealth with and the fact that the current "free market" health care policy doesn't work for 50+ million Americans.

*this socialized health care will lead to more taxes just like in other countries that have socialized health care - this one was amazing. She said something about Norway having a 100% import tax and that Canada has a 13% consumption tax. First, I couldn't find anything about that import tax other than something from a .gov that said Norway's import tax was like 24% or so. Also, while some provinces in Canada have a 13% consumption tax others down and despite the fact that Canada has lower income taxes that we do.

*some people said that those arguing against socialism are really just arguing against the plan that has been proposed not health care reform in general - i thought this was really disingenuous so i asked exactly which corporations/lobbies are against this particular reform and what reforms they were looking for in the system. no one had any answer for this and while absence of evidence doesn't mean that they aren't looking for reform it does mean that people who are arguing against this particular reform have no clue that there are almost no other serious reforms addressing the huge amount of people without health care being put out there. In essence people have no clue what the alternatives are or who is really against this bill and why. this in spite of the fact that fox news and other right wing groups are the only entities pushing against this bill.

all sorts of others not really worth mentioning.

They absolutely LOVE posting things from Fox News:



In short I called my friends out for not having a clue about what the fuck they are talking about. They didn't like it, but at least I can say I've read through the parts of the bill that those right wing talking points claimed were so evil and found those complaints to be wholly and truly without merit. They haven't so much as picked it up once.


Last edited by neveragainlikesheep on Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:26 pm
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angrymushroom



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 108
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I am one of those people that use my insurance to the max.
I have United Healthcare.
So far I am probably in the million dollar range with them.
If I need something from a doctor I go immediately and because I have a PPO I go to whatever doctor I want and usually drive 20 miles for the best.
I had a surgery (elective) with a doctor in Beverly Hills - actually a breast reduction and lift (I am small and those were too big so insurance paid).
My back was hurting, it was not fun having giant knockers.
So far my insurance has paid 70,000 to cedar sinai and that isn't even including paying for my doctor to come to the hospital to perform the actual surgery.

I don't even know what my c-section cost there but it was incredibly high.

I have had no insurance, I have been treated like shit for it.
I mean, waiting in a LA hospital seeing a family carry their dead relative through the waiting room is just wrong.
Next to me, waiting was a young guy with a bullet through his arm.
I asked how long he was there for, 2 hours.

We need to have healthcare, I don't want to see another sick homeless person get dropped off on skid row by a hospital.

I am moving to Canada next year. If I wanted the same surgery I just got I would have had to wait a year possibly,
would've sucked I was in a lot of pain and had it done within a week of requesting here but I will be so happy to see cancer patients getting the treatment they deserve,
the poor getting their chance to have a normal checkup without going bankrupt or just being turned away.

DJ Rob One (shapeshifters) died of cancer. You know what the hospitals did to him?
Turned him away, he even slept on benches outside of the hospitals....dying.
No insurance. :(
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:44 pm
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Travadone



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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knockers you say
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:49 pm
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angrymushroom



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 108
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Travadone wrote:
knockers you say



:(

You suck.
Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:06 am
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mindtoast



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 664
Location: australia
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for my money the tragedy of the american system is not that you get fuck all cover, cos hell, maybe you guys don't want higher taxes or whatever but that your system costs just so fucking much, and you get basically nothing for that money. 15% of GDP versus about 9% of GDP for australia for example. thats purified insanity
Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:11 am
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poisonfree



Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1511
Location: Macramento
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LuvSpeakeasy wrote:
Basilisk wrote:

2) gov't healthcare will not be an option. gov't healthcare will be mandatory. Except for congressmen/senators/other politicians. They can keep their current plans


no, it's definitely being presented as a public option. that's what they're touting as a huge part of the reform's appeal.


He is quoting what the right wing radio stations (and those angry old white people) are claiming the health care reform will entail.


which is fucking absolutely absurd if they took the time to even think about it for 2 minutes, what kind of "private" health care system would stay in the business of providing only services to politicians? they make their money off everyone.

it'd be like a shop losing 98% of their customers.

People that use canada as an argument as for why we shouldn't have universal healthcare drive me nuts. Canada (is ranked about 30 in the list of worlds top ranking healthcare, USA is ranked like 37 i think) What happened to patriotism? why do they assume we should be aiming so low on the totem pole of "successful" healthcare.

I love Canada, I have friends who love their health care there, but fuck that, I want FRANCE TYPE SHIT. France is ranked #1 by the World Health Organization. I want that shit. Why do these idiots think we need to be only 7 rungs better, I mean I would be happy with that, but that's not what I want, that's not what my Grandparents need, that's not what my parents need, and that's not what the homeless need. Wee need that top rank sheeyat!

My Girlfriend did a huge project/debate on socialized health care systems and why we need it. the person who was debating against her had MONTHS to research, and construct a good argument. She had none. it was like watching the idiots at these town hall meetings.
Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:32 am
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