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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 2733
Location: Vote for me and i'll vote for you.
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Scottie wrote:
American Apparel would not hire me is more to my point along with most of the 10% unemployed in this country.


did you apply?

shinigami, read this article, i just googled around to find u a little something that makes some points about mexico and america's relationship since nafta...im not as smart as i wanna be so i will let your fingers do the googlin'

but here's at least one article that addresses in part your question

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/517229/nafta_the_department_of_agriculture.html?cat=3
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:31 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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note1 wrote:

Quote:

No, most businesses that employ undocumented immigrants don't want to legalize them. If you legalize them then you have to pay taxes on them and pay them at least minimum wage. Most companies that hire these people do so to exploit their "illegal" status and violate worker's rights laws with impunity.



I get what your saying, but why is the big business wing of the repubs so in favor of some kind of immigration reform? What's the angle, they don't want to interupt the stream of cheap labor. I'm not sure exactly whats been proposed but all those 'guest worker' programs have to end up with something short of full blown citizenship status for it to be in their self interest.


If they're really in favor of this they would have passed it while Bush was in office. It was the one thing he promised that I was kind of excited about and nothing ever came of it.

I think that a lot of these politicians are using this as a hollow campaign promise to secure the conservative Latin block. It's pandering to reach out to people who share some policy ideas with the Republicans but strongly disagree on others. Throw in something like immigration reform and you're suddenly that much more attractive.

I think big business sees an immigrant population as a potential to get cheap labor without moving operations overseas. I don't particularly mind this, because I would rather that people are payed low, but not ridiculously so, wages here than elsewhere. This is because we have better laws to protect workers and the environment than almost any country they would offshore to. That may be a motivating factor for businesses, and in turn politicians.

Personally, for most Republican's I'm leaning towards the former theory to explain their support for immigration reform rather than the latter. There are other factors in there, too. Such as: if immigration reform goes badly they can use the Dems as a scapegoat right now. Maybe they really do just want to reform it. You'd have to go case-by-case to really figure it out.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:31 pm
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note1



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1260
Location: providence
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Quote:

If they're really in favor of this they would have passed it while Bush was in office. It was the one thing he promised that I was kind of excited about and nothing ever came of it.



Oh they're in favor of it, it's just that the loony gun-toting jesus voting block who keeps electing them would revolt when the big-business wing of the party pushed for it.


Quote:

I think that a lot of these politicians are using this as a hollow campaign promise to secure the conservative Latin block


I don't think thats it, it's not working if it is.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:40 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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No, it works. It's about the only way they leach some of those votes form Democrats. Bush had strong support from those voters. That isn't to say that they are a majority of Hispanic voters.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:48 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver
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Man I can't stand Latin-Americans that hate undocumented workers. The Repugs can have those assholes as far as I'm concerned. They're on the nativist tip after only being in the country for a generation or so (in many cases... some were of course here pre-Euro intervention, and they're literally the only ones with a leg to stand on)... pretty sad.

Last edited by Stumbleweed on Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:55 pm
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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 2733
Location: Vote for me and i'll vote for you.
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i admire the bravery of the undocumented worker. no human being is illegal. fittingly enough these workers are more "american" then most of their opposition.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:09 pm
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The Count



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1558
Location: Chapel Hill
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Stumbleweed wrote:
Man I can't stand Latin-Americans that hate undocumented workers. The Repugs can have those assholes as far as I'm concerned. They're on the nativist tip after only being in the country for a generation or so (in many cases... some were of course here pre-Euro intervention, and they're literally the only ones with a leg to stand on)... pretty sad.


YEA!! How dare those minorities have an opinion different from the one I project onto them!!11!
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:30 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Yep, that's exactly it.

It's always some "I worked my way to get here and they should do the same" even when the conditions were COMPLETELY different and have almost no relation to one another. It's the same tired overture that every Irish/Polish asshole who thinks he's living the American Dream says in response to the same issue.

What the fuck ever, those jerks get the gasface. They're hypocrites.

And FYI, I'm half Latino and that side of my family has been in Northern New Mexico/Colorado since well before the Spaniards showed up.... can't really project an opinion onto a group that I belong to.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:41 pm
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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
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Being against undocumented workers doesn't make you a nativist. If I had to go through the immigration process legally, considering it is a long and arduous process, I might be angry at people who came in illegally. I might feel cheated, like those workers were taking jobs away from people who did it the legal and "proper" way.

Also:

Stumbleweed wrote:
every Irish/Polish asshole


The hypocrisy you're talking about is not exclusive to the Irish or the Poles, so you can just get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:47 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Location: Denver
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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
Being against undocumented workers doesn't make you a nativist. If I had to go through the immigration process legally, considering it is a long and arduous process, I might be angry at people who came in illegally. I might feel cheated, like those workers were taking jobs away from people who did it the legal and "proper" way.

Also:

Stumbleweed wrote:
every Irish/Polish asshole


The hypocrisy you're talking about is not exclusive to the Irish or the Poles, so you can just get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
I just said Irish/Polish because they were formerly shitted on but are now "white" like everyone else and are often found bitching about illegal immigrants. Italians, what the hell ever...any group that wasn't one of the "chosen" and then became accepted has that same tired refrain. I don't mean that it was exclusive to them, they're just the ones I most commonly see putting up that illogical "why can't they go through legal channels like my family did?" retort that makes no fucking sense in current contexts.

The key difference there is that the doors have been open to them for well over 100 years. The Latinos that came from Mexico/Central/South America in the 1800's were primarily just labor as they are now, but there were no such insane restrictions and quotas until the early 1900's (and of course, all of the tight restrictions were for brown-skinned people, including Mediterranean groups). But during that time, agriculture in CA and other states (sugar beet towns in Colorado) created a huge labor need and the US began importing mass amounts of Mexican laborers and putting them in factory shanty towns, which created the majority of the Latino population that is in the US today. The people (like my family) who were here well before all that only have a leg to stand on if they're against all immigration -- meaning all the European dicks that bought up/stole their land as well as any people who are trying to come in now... otherwise it's an inconsistent position.

Point being, the restrictive nature of immigration laws and the uptick in Nativism since the 60's has made it increasingly difficult to actually gain legal citizenship, especially for Mexicans and South/Central Americans. The problems faced by the current group of undocumented workers is worse in a lot of ways than that of their forefathers because there are very few paths to legal citizenship, long waiting lists, and penalties for being caught living here illegally. Even if your papers were filed and you were on the list to get in, if you came early and were discovered, you get put on an ineligible list for 10 years before you can apply again and be put on the waiting list YET AGAIN. People always say, "well, why don't they go back to Mexico?" Well, if you go back to Mexico after being here, you get put on the restricted list again and it's another 10 years before you can be considered for legal residency. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:57 pm
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Scottie



Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 2829
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Also noone has mentioned the actual costs of becoming a citizen make it highly restrictive to the migrant workers that want to do the right thing.

Always thought this was a good short primer on the actual legwork required to be legal.

http://www.articlesbase.com/politics-articles/the-green-card-naturalization-and-how-to-become-a-legal-immigrant-207610.html
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:07 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19362
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b. dolan wrote:
this thread is a mess. haha.

the company knew they were hiring 'illegal' workers. they did it on purpose.

it was company policy not to do anything to verify a worker's documents. as long as they presented those easily forgable documents, the company turned a blind eye.

this was not done in the name of exploiting workers. it was done in the name of helping out 'illegal' immigrants and giving them a good job.

the company consciously employed them, displays a banner on the side of the factory that says "legalize L.A.", gives workers time off to attend immigrant rights protests in the city, and generally kicks ass in this department.

when i spoke to them they knew they could face a raid like this, but were taking the chance because they believed in what they were doing.

this isn't one of the areas i would fault them on.


Well that takes care of that then.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:30 pm
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WrathChild



Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 953
Location: Reno eNVy
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Fuck unemployment. Fuck nationalism. What about the massive overpopulation of this country? Infrastructure is taxed to its breaking point, we can't create enough energy to support half our population sustainably, and water. We're fucking out of water. How far do you go to help somebody before you slit your own wrist?

And that's not just for illegal immigrants, its for all immigrants. We just can't let anyone else on this sinking ship until we get this shit figured out.


Last edited by WrathChild on Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:40 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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WrathChild wrote:
Fuck unemployment. Fuck nationalism. What about the massive overpopulation of this country? Infrastructure is taxed to its breaking point, we can't create enough energy to support half our population sustainably, and water. We're fucking out of water. How far do you go to help somebody before you slit your own wrist?


We're out of water? I'm drinking a glass right now!

And just finished filling a swimming pool in the backyard...FOR MY DOGS!!!

I wish someone had told me we were out of water beforehand.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:43 pm
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WrathChild



Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 953
Location: Reno eNVy
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futuristxen wrote:
WrathChild wrote:
Fuck unemployment. Fuck nationalism. What about the massive overpopulation of this country? Infrastructure is taxed to its breaking point, we can't create enough energy to support half our population sustainably, and water. We're fucking out of water. How far do you go to help somebody before you slit your own wrist?


We're out of water? I'm drinking a glass right now!

And just finished filling a swimming pool in the backyard...FOR MY DOGS!!!

I wish someone had told me we were out of water beforehand.


Now you know, America hater!


Quote:

I am amazed: since last summer, almost every day we see at least one news story on another water crisis in the U.S. The water crisis is no longer something that we know about as affecting developing countries or their poor in particular. It is right here in our own backyard. Today, in many parts of the U.S. we are nearing the limits of our water supplies. And that is getting our attention. The writing has been on the wall for some time. The private sector has been showing much interest in water as a source of profit, and water privatization has been an issue in many parts of the country.

The failure in public water systems has indeed been a contributing factor for this interest. In many cities, consumers have been organizing and opposing the privatization of water utilities, because they have been concerned about affordability or deterioration in the quality of service. Environmental organizations and consumer activists have also been concerned about the socio-economic, health and environmental implications of ever increasing bottled water use. But for most of us living in the U.S., water is something we take for granted, available when you turn your tap on -- to brush your teeth, to take a shower, to wash your car, to water your lawn, and if you have your own swimming pool then, to fill that as well.

So it was with alarm that many of us read the story of Orme, a small town tucked away in the mountains of southern Tennessee that has become a recent symbol of the drought in the southeast. Orme has had to literally ration its water use, by collecting water for a few hours every day -- an everyday experience in most developing countries, but unusual for the U.S. This is an extreme experience from the southeast region that has been under a year long dry spell. In fact, the region's dry spell resulted in the city of Atlanta setting severe water use restrictions and three states, Georgia, Florida and Alabama, going to court over a water allocation dispute (settled in favor of Florida and Alabama early last month).

Early this year we also heard that drought in the region could force nuclear reactor shut-downs. Nuclear reactors need billions of gallons of cooling water daily to operate, and in many of the lakes and rivers water levels are getting close to the limit set by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. It is possible in the coming months that we may see water levels decrease below the intake pipes, or that shallow water could become warmer and unusable as a coolant. While this may not cause blackouts, this can result in increased costs for energy as utilities have to buy from other sources.

Water concerns are not restricted to the southeast region -- similar issues have also been popping up in other parts of the United States. In the Midwest, concerns abound as to whether the newly emerging biofuel industry is putting undue pressure on the region's groundwater resources. The issue came into focus for the first time in the late summer of 2006 in Granite Falls, MN where an ethanol plant in its first year of operation depleted the groundwater so much that it had to begin pumping water from the Minnesota River.

In early February, it was reported that there is a 50 percent chance Lake Mead (on the Arizona/Nevada border), will be dry by 2021 if climate change continues as expected and future water use is not limited. Along with Lake Powell in Utah, Lake Mead helps provide water for more than 25 million people, and is a key source of water in the southwestern U.S. On the west coast, where water is a precious resource, water disputes abound: between farmers who want water for agriculture, environmentalists who want to conserve water for ecosystems, and cities who want to meet ever-growing urban water needs. Last summer, in a landmark decision, a federal judge ordered state and federal water project managers to reduce the amount of water pumped from the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta to protect the threatened delta smelt from extinction. Along with excessive rains in other regions and increased incidence of hurricanes in the Gulf Coast, these changes are a constant reminder of an increasingly evident reality: climate change.

In fact, in early February, Nature reported that, "In the western US, where water is perhaps the most precious natural resource, anthropogenic global warming is responsible for more than half of the well-documented changes to the hydrological cycle from 1950 to 1999. Over the last half of the twentieth century, the region's mountains received less winter snow and more rain, with snow melting earlier, causing rivers to flow more strongly in the spring and more weakly in the summer."
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:54 pm
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