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Flossin



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 575
Sage's music & Christianity  Reply with quote  

Can this be discussed here instead of the "Jesus is everywhere captions" thread? Cause I kind of liked that thread & thought it was funny, however a separate discussion of the stuff started there could also be interesting. I'm actually interested in hearing about headcase's (and possibly others..?) perspectives on that.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:00 pm
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Juan
girls don juan anything to do with me


Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 1123
Location: Ohio
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I'd like to hear headcase's interpretation of Sun vs. Moon
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:20 pm
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headcase



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 315
Location: chicago
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Check the Jesus thread, that's all i really have to say.I don't have lyrics in front of me. I'm just going off of memory. I haven't listened to the album for a couple months. I was just answering a question, what sage says about Christianity isn't really that important to me. Now the bible, that's a different story.

John 1:1
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:22 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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He keep movin'
He go from post to post
Don't have lyrics
No clue, so he's closing his mouth.
He bounced.
Yeah, he's leaving this place.

Sage already said he won't explain meaning in his briefcase.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 pm
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headcase



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 315
Location: chicago
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Lol... That's funny, are you one of the 100 rappers on here? I already mentioned 2 lines in songs, but no one seems to try and disprove those. I didn't know sage had said that.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm
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Flossin



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 575
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That's too bad that it's all you really have to say about it, cause you seemed to be really positive about HTDD being pro-Christian etc. And if you were offended with the captions in the other thread (or at least got a bit defensive because of them), than the question about how can you enjoy songs like "Sun vs Moon" (or other Sage stuff, for that matter) seemed like a legit and interesting one. So you're bothered by those Jesus captions on Sage's forum but it's not important to you what Sage actually has to say on those matters in his songs? This thread won't be very interesting after all, it seems.

I don't think there's many people on this forum who share this opinion (and probably not a lot that actually share your beliefs) and it's always nice to hear some different opinions, even if I don't really agree with them.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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Can't make it to heaven with a high step is about high school football, not the desire to make it to heaven. It's tongue in cheek. I f I recall correctly, in the song he participates in a pre-game prayer ritual without really being sincere about it. The topic of of god and religion is covered throughout Sage's work, and most of it is not favorable. On Personal Journals, he sings "Since I'm used to the cold I'll be able to rest my head on Jesuses shoulder." On Li(f)e, an album that is generally understood as a jab at religion, where the theme of unanswered prayers continues, "Had one too many one-way conversations with the lord." In the song Sun vs. Moon, Sage proclaims that God is a bitch, however, Sage has stated that this song is actually about metaphorical Dj battle between the sun and the moon. Still, Sun vs. moon maintains an atheistic tone, "the devil only exists because of your belief in him, same goes for that other guy."

These are some quick examples that come to mind, I'm sure we could find more examples throughout Sage's body of work that indicate a "healthy distrust," if not downright refusal of organized religion in general and evangelical Christianity in particular. Beyond his lyrics, if you consider the Strange Famous Record label as part of Sage's work, the label has produced a band called Prayers for Atheists, whose "Psalm for St. Paul" is actually about the police repression against activists. In doing so, PFA might be calling attention to the need to organize collectively against worldly injustice, rather than wait for some heavenly reward.

We've had discussions here where some of us have started to reconcile the intellectual defeat and skepticism with religion with an appreciation for the culture and ritual in it. Recently Bishop Samuel Ruiz of Chiapas, Mexico died. He played a big role in the struggle for justice in Mexico. Here is a communique from the EZLN regarding his death, the vatican's history of working against liberation theologists, the government's use of his memory in vain, critques of leftist tendencies to shit on all religion, and celebration of the kind of christians that actually stand with the poor and dispossessed:


Communiqué by the General Command of the EZLN on the death of Don Samuel Ruiz García

COMMUNIQUÉ BY THE CLANDESTINE INDIGENOUS REVOLUTIONARY COMMITTEE – GENERAL COMMAND OF THE ZAPATISTA ARMY OF NATIONAL LIBERATION.
MEXICO.

JANUARY 2011.
TO THE PEOPLE OF MEXICO:

The Clandestine Indigenous Revolutionary Committee – General Command of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation expresses its sorrow for the death of Emeritus Bishop Don Samuel Ruiz García.

In the EZLN there are people with different creeds and without any religious belief, but the human stature of this man (and of those who, like him, walk beside the oppressed, the dispossessed, the repressed, the despised) calls for our words.

Although our differences, disagreements, and distances were neither few nor minor, today we want to highlight a commitment and a trajectory not only of an individual, but of a whole current within the Catholic Church.

Don Samuel Ruiz García not only stood out for a Catholicism practiced in and with the dispossessed, but his team was also part of a whole generation of Christians committed to this practice in the Catholic religion. Not only did he worry about the grave situation of misery and marginalization of the original peoples of Chiapas, but he also worked with a heroic pastoral team to improve those disgraceful conditions of life and death.

That which governments purposely forgot in order to cultivate death, became a testimony of life in the diocese of San Cristóbal de Las Casas.

Don Samuel Ruiz García and his team not only made every effort to reach peace with justice and dignity for all indigenous peoples of Chiapas, they also risked and continue to risk their life, freedom, and goods on this path cut short by the arrogance of political power.

Even long before our uprising in 1994, the Diocese of San Cristóbal suffered harassment, attacks, and defamation from the Federal Army and the subsequent state governments.

At least since Juan Sabines Gutiérrez (remembered for the massacre of Wolonchan in 1980) and through General Absalón Castellanos Domínguez, Patrocinio González Garrido, Elmar Setzer M., Eduardo Robledo Rincón, Julio César Ruiz Ferro (one of the authors of the Acteal massacre in 1997) and Roberto Albores Guillén (better known as “croquetas”), the governors of Chiapas harassed those who in the diocese of San Cristóbal opposed their murders and the management of the state as if it was an hacienda from the times of Porfirio Díaz.

Since 1994, during his work in the National Commission for Intermediation (CONAI) and in the company of women and men who made up this entity for peace, Don Samuel was pressured, harassed, and threatened, including assassination attempts by the paramilitary group ill-named “Paz y Justicia” (Peace and Justice).

And as president of the CONAI Don Samuel also suffered, in February 1995, the threat of imprisonment.

Ernesto Zedillo Ponce de León, as part of a strategy of distraction (like the one carried out now) to hide the serious economic crisis in which he and Carlos Salinas de Gortari had sunken the country, reactivated the war against Zapatista indigenous communities.

At the same time as he launched a large military offensive against the EZLN (which failed), Zedillo attacked the National Commission for Intermediation.

Obsessed with the idea of getting rid of Don Samuel, the then president of Mexico, now an employee of transnational corporations, took advantage of the alliance that, under the tutelage of Carlos Salinas de Gortari and Diego Fernández de Cevallos, had been created between the PRI and the PAN.

Those days, at a meeting of the high leadership of the Catholic Church, the then General Attorney, member of the PAN, and fanatic of the most ludicrous spiritism and witchcraft, Antonio Lozano Gracia, waved before Don Samuel Ruiz García a document with a warrant for his arrest.

And it is said that the attorney and graduate in Occult Sciences was confronted by the other bishops, among them Norberto Rivera, who came out in defense of the bishop of San Cristóbal.

The PRI-PAN alliance (which would later be joined in Chiapas by the PRD and the PT) against the progressive Catholic Church did not stop there. From the federal and state governments, attacks, slanders, and attempts were sponsored against members of the Diocese.

The Federal Army did not stay behind. At the same time as it financed, trained, and armed paramilitary groups, it promoted the discourse that the Diocese sowed violence.

The thesis at that time (repeated today by idiots of the left that sits behind a desk) was that the Diocese had formed the bases and leadership of the EZLN.

An example among many of these ridiculous arguments was when a general displayed a book as proof of the links between the Diocese and the “lawbreakers.”

The title of the incriminating book is “The Gospel according to Saint Mark” (San Marcos).

Today these attacks continue.

The “Fray Bartolomé de Las Casas” Human Rights Center constantly receives threats and harassment.

In addition to having been funded by Don Samuel Ruiz García and being inspired by Christian beliefs, the “Frayba” has as “aggravating offenses” its belief in the Integrality and Indivisibility of Human Rights, in respect of cultural diversity and the right of Self-Determination, in integral justice as a requirement for peace, and in the development of a culture of dialog, tolerance, and reconciliation, with respect to cultural and religious plurality.

Nothing could be more vexing than these principles.

And this vexation reaches all the way to the Vatican, where maneuvers are made to split the diocese of San Cristóbal de Las Casas in two, in order to dilute the alternative in, for, and with the poor, in the complaisance that launders consciences with money. Taking advantage of the death of Don Samuel, this project of control and division is reactivated.

Because up there they understand that the option for the poor does not die with Don Samuel. It lives and acts in that whole sector of the Catholic Church that decided to act in consequence with what it preaches.

In the meantime, the pastoral team, and especially the deacons, ministers, and catechists (indigenous Catholics from the communities) suffer slanders, insults, and attacks from the neo-lovers of war. Power continues yearning for its days of sovereignty and sees in the work of the Diocese an obstacle to reinstate its regime of the gallows and the knife.

The grotesque procession of personalities from the local and national political scene before the coffin of Don Samuel is not to honor him, but to confirm, with relief, that he has died; and the local media pretend to grieve what in reality they celebrate.

Beyond all these attacks and ecclesiastical conspiracies, Don Samuel Ruiz García and Christians like him had, have, and will continue having a special place in the dark-skinned heart of Zapatista indigenous communities.

Now that it has become fashionable to condemn the Catholic Church for the crimes, outrages, commissions and omissions of some of its prelates…

Now that the self-proclaimed “progressive” sector takes delight in mocking and ridiculing the entire Catholic Church…

Now that people are encouraged to see in every priest a potential or active pederast…

Now it would be good go back and turn our gaze downward, to find there those who, like before Don Samuel, stood up and continue to stand up to Power.

Because these Christians firmly believe that justice must also reign in this world.

And thus they live and die, in thought, word, and deed.

Because although it is true that there are Marcials and Onésimos in the Catholic Church, there were also Roncos, Ernestos, Samuels, Arturos, Raúls, Sergios, Bartolomés, Joels, Heribertos, Raymundos, Salvadors, Santiagos, Diegos, Estelas, Victorias, and thousands of clerics and laypersons who, standing on the side of justice and freedom, stand on the side of life.

In the EZLN, Catholics and non-Catholics, believers and non-believers, today we not only honor the memory of Don Samuel.

We also, and above all, salute the consequent commitment of Christians and believers who in Chiapas, Mexico, and the World, do not keep a complicit silence before injustice, nor do they remain idle in the face of war.

Don Samuel departs, but many others remain who, in and for the Catholic faith, struggle for an earthly world that is more just, freer, and more democratic, in other words, for a better world.

We salute them, because their endeavors will also give rise to tomorrow.

FREEDOM!
JUSTICE!
DEMOCRACY!

From the mountains of the Mexican Southeast.
For the Clandestine Revolutionary Indigenous Committee – General Command of the EZLN.

Teniente Coronel Insurgente Moisés Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos

Mexico, January 2011.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:39 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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No, i'm no rapper. I play flute in a Norwegian black metal band. I just toy w other people's lyrics.

just for kicks, I found this:
"AllHipHop.com: In the song “High Step” you start out replaying your history in football. Were you a football player growing up, or is speak to something higher in athletics?

Sage Francis: The story is true. It’s all literal. There is a higher metaphor working there. I played football from seventh grade all the way to college. But I was into all different sports. I was really athletic. Once I got to college I decided to put sports on the side and focus on academics. But I ended up spending time on music and poetry. It’s been a long time since I focused on sports and that really felt good to me. This song is kind of like showing that I hold stuff in me a long time and wait to let it out. This album is about reflection and learning from those experiences. Everyone is led to believe there is a higher power working over them; God this, God that. You submit to higher powers and you submit to the machine. That’s how the government and the military work. It’s a huge microcosm. That’s what I experienced. At one point I was doing martial arts, which I did from fourth grade to college. At the time, that’s where my spirituality came from. Only when I broke away did a lot of falsities that I bought into faded away. And that’s something I was trying to get across. "

source: here. The HTDD album is discussed.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:43 pm
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headcase



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 315
Location: chicago
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I understand anger at God and not believing in him. When I first became a sage fan, I wasn't a Christian. I just lost my week old new born son, don't you think there was some anger there?? I came in that other thread to speak about Jesus and open a discussion about who he is. I achieved that. This Sage's music thread Just isn't that interesting to me. I quoted 2 lines in the other thread, that all i care to share.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:46 pm
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Juan
girls don juan anything to do with me


Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 1123
Location: Ohio
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why would you make it your goal to open a discussion and then refuse to mention more than 2 lines
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:49 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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Not that interesting? Have you forgotten what Sage has made for you?!
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:50 pm
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headcase



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Location: chicago
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I stand corrected!! Sage hates Jesus!! Now leave me alone. You are all superior to me!
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:55 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
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headcase wrote:
I stand corrected!! Sage hates Jesus!! Now leave me alone. You are all superior to me!


It's your stupid faith that you brought up. People were trying to engage you. Why be a dick?
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:01 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 pm
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headcase



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 315
Location: chicago
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icarus502 wrote:
headcase wrote:
I stand corrected!! Sage hates Jesus!! Now leave me alone. You are all superior to me!


It's your stupid faith that you brought up. People were trying to engage you. Why be a dick?


I was wrong about Sage, I brought my faith up and that wasn't what I was corrected about. Now you're being a dick by calling it stupid.
Post Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:06 pm
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