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uk paper: new Abu Ghraib photos depict rape/sexual assault
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Lants



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 2234
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so, if you were out there serving, you could imagine doing this?
or imagine people you know getting to a point that they would do this?

i don't believe that. even if i was out there, i can't imagine i would ever be capable of this behavior.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:16 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21601
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I'm not condoning it. I'm accepting that brutal, horrible, inhumane shit happens in ALL wars. Which is one great reason to resist war with all of our might.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:22 am
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest
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That nasty is in everyone somewhere. Even if the you or I of now couldn't comprehend it, the you or I of some other time is a different story.
The 50,000 years of human history says people are perpetually a few steps from chopping up more bodies and doing truly atrocious blank faced shit.
It'd probably be best if everyone thought they were an exception to the sad numbers.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:30 am
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6303
Location: the barber of hard truths
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Yeah, but treating prisoners like this is not "just war." It's actually a war crime. People attempted to raise concerns about the environment of Abu Ghraib, but no efforts were made to promote discipline in the prison because there had been specific instructions to make the conditions as harsh as possible for the purpose of gathering intelligence.

We'll never know exactly how much the White House and the Pentagon knew about what things were like at Abu Ghraib in the spring of 2004, but with the election fast approaching and the urgent political need to tamp down the insurgency, I believe that top officials like Cheney and Rumsfeld had a fairly good idea about the conditions at the prison and felt that harsh treatment would provide useful intelligence. The American military is a disciplined, professional organization...the only way the environment could have been this bad is if there was, at the very least, a loosening of the reigns. Because, hey, a woman who was raped once won't want to get raped again, so maybe she'll drop a little line on what her neighbor has in his cellar... It seems cliched to say "this goes all the way to the top," but in this case...it did.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:32 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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I think the photos should be released, as should all evidence of torture. There should be a reckoning for that stuff. Republicans are defending this enough in the public arena, that I'm not convinced enough people think this stuff is wrong. Maybe if we put it all out there, we'll horrify enough of the public, that it will never happen again. Or at least not in the near future.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:40 am
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Sage Francis
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Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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Right. It's a war crime

Which happens during war. All wars. Show me a clean war without atrocious crimes involved and I'll show you a vegan McDonald's restaurant.

These atrocious things happen in ALL wars. And worse. Until that is understood, I don't think people will ever understand why war really REALLY really should be the very last resort. And it's quite clear, and quite sad, that the last few wars America has jumped into were not last resorts. We're a fucked country. We've lost honor. You want rape pictures to be shown to the world? That's cool with me. As long as everyone understands that this is the nasty bi-product that comes with all wars. It would be good if this could be used as an excuse to prevent future wars. Something tells me that isn't going to happen. I'm predicting quite the opposite.


Last edited by Sage Francis on Thu May 28, 2009 3:13 am; edited 2 times in total
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:43 am
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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Location: the barber of hard truths
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I'm not trying to disagree with you, at all. You are 100 percent right, these kinds of things happen in all wars, and it's stupid to pretend like any kind of laws are going to prevent 23 year olds from doing all manner of horrible shit when you put them in a situation where they have to kill people and see their friends die.

But this isn't some rinky dink third world militia fighting an ethnic conflict, it's the US Army. In this case it wasn't just 23 year olds acting outside the bounds of their orders. The environment that allowed them to do these horrible things was fostered and created by high level US officials, who look like they're going to escape punishment. In the grand scheme of things, releasing those photos isn't going to make an ounce of difference, and we'll probably blow ourselves to oblivion at some point anyway. But when you can punish someone for this kind of thing, you really have to try, and not releasing those photos is a sign from Obama that he's not really invested in pulling together the public support for a real investigation into why the conditions at that prison were allowed to deteriorate so profoundly. I mean, the evidence really is there, but politics are dictating justice here. Which sucks, that's all.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 2:58 am
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the mean
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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I think Shamb is right on in this thread (at least the edited version of Shamb.) Not releasing these photos is a shameful move by Obama.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 6:26 am
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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shambhala wrote:
There is a reason these pictures have to see the light of day. It's not about protecting Americans, it's about giving some small measure of respect to the people who we mistreated like this.
Actually, this is where my qualm comes in - publishing images of someone's rape is NOT providing them any measure of respect. Some survivors would be all for it because proof can be validating, but many would feel violated all over again. This seems especially likely in the case of a foreign national raped by an American whose picture was subsequently made public in America.

Looking at it as a rape or sexual assault case, I'm not sure what precisely the benefits of releasing the images to the general public would be. You don't do that with any other case of that nature.

I absolutely want this dealt with openly and severely, I'm not arguing in favour of any form of protection of ANYone, innocent troops or otherwise (you want them out of harm's way GET THEM THE FUCK OUT), and I don't think it's acceptable to downplay the revelations.

But I also don't think anyone has a right to see those images who doesn't have a role to play in dealing with having them answered for. I'm willing to take the word of a given contingent of observers in that capacity.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 8:47 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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Maybe there's something I don't understand but I don't see why these pictures can't be used in court without publishing them for the whole world to see.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 8:52 am
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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firefly wrote:
Maybe there's something I don't understand but I don't see why these pictures can't be used in court without publishing them for the whole world to see.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I just wish that protecting the dignity of the victims was being used as the official argument rather than protecting the fucking troops.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 8:56 am
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Location: Orange County
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this absolutely makes me boil. I am extremely upset over this. But I will not post more because I cannot really compute in words how upset I am.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 9:38 am
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Location: Denver
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Jesse wrote:
I just wish that protecting the dignity of the victims was being used as the official argument rather than protecting the fucking troops.

I agree with this completely... not feeling the "releasing the photos shows respect to the people who were mistreated" argument... or the "endanger our troops argument" for that matter (even though the outrage will undoubtedly endanger our troops, which y'know, is technically in their job description).

And yes, that these photos and this behavior exists with our implicit support makes me pretty damn sick.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 9:58 am
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Location: Orange County
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Jesse wrote:
I just wish that protecting the dignity of the victims was being used as the official argument rather than protecting the fucking troops.


this is it.
Post Thu May 28, 2009 10:05 am
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ROTTY



Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1407
Location: London
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Raping and pillaging has always been a war tactic. It just not in the training manual. Vikings did not invent it Its in human nature....dates back to cave men probably. Its a power and dominance thing driven by false hate.

Its shitty but people should stop being shocked by it! They should just expect it and teach it in schools. Show the nasty stuff to the youth early on instead of depicting these Genrals and commanders as fairy tale like heros like every bullshit history lesson i had.

cant type right now so not gonna correct me spelling....too tired!


Last edited by ROTTY on Thu May 28, 2009 10:17 am; edited 2 times in total
Post Thu May 28, 2009 10:09 am
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