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*sigh* Gay Marriage Ban Upheld
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Where good people go to die.
*sigh* Gay Marriage Ban Upheld  Reply with quote  

California Supreme Court just upheld the gay marriage ban.

I think it goes to the Federal Supreme Court now.

I understand that they upheld it because the law was voted on and passed by voters, and it's the supreme court's job to uphold the will of the voters, but come on......

Modern day Jim crow bullshit.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:23 am
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box johnson



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 1123
Location: Denver
 Reply with quote  

If only Iowa didn't shuck.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:26 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
 Reply with quote  

Time to move out to the midwest or northeast with the true liberals and leave that closed-minded, conservative California place behind.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:26 am
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Where good people go to die.
 Reply with quote  

that's for sure....

I'm originally from Michigan... a small ass conservative tourist town. Moved to Cali 4 years ago to escape shit like this...

am definitely considering moving back. Cali fell off.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:29 am
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 6359
Location: http://www.myspace.com/pogopark
 Reply with quote  

I'm actually glad that the ban was upheld. Andrew Sullivan has convinced me that using courts to advance this particular civil rights cause is not the best-case scenario.

Don't get me wrong, I was hoping that it would be overturned just based on the sheer net positive effect. But the truth is that California didn't fall off at all. Gay marriage advocates failed big time on Prop 8. They deserved the defeat because they made a ton of stupid decisions, alienated potential allies (especially in communities and organizations of color) and ran a cowardly campaign that played down gay people and ran against the proposition rather than in support of gay marriage rights.

Having a court overturn the people's will would simply reward that failure and create the appearance that the gay rights movement succeeded only based on dirty legal tricks even in the face of being clearly defeated fair and square at the ballot box.

This is much better for the overall cause of gay marriage rights. There will be a new proposition next time the chance arises which will repeal prop 8. It's a chance for us to do it properly and win on the merits. I'm extremely confident that a gay marriage rights proposition can and will win in California given that the case is made in a compelling, non-cowardly campaign run in an inclusive and honest fashion. So, I'm not worried.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:40 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
 Reply with quote  

Embryo wrote:
Having a court overturn the people's will would [meh stuff here...] create the appearance that the gay rights movement succeeded only based on dirty legal tricks even in the face of being clearly defeated fair and square at the ballot box.

This is much better for the overall cause of gay marriage rights. There will be a new proposition next time the chance arises which will repeal prop 8. It's a chance for us to do it properly and win on the merits. I'm extremely confident that a gay marriage rights proposition can and will win in California given that the case is made in a compelling, non-cowardly campaign run in an inclusive and honest fashion. So, I'm not worried.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:44 am
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Where good people go to die.
 Reply with quote  


Quote:

Having a court overturn the people's will would simply reward that failure and create the appearance that the gay rights movement succeeded only based on dirty legal tricks even in the face of being clearly defeated fair and square at the ballot box.


I totally get this point. And it is a very strong one.

However, If you were gay and in California, would that make any difference in how you feel? Would any amount of reasoning or justification soften the fact that you are being told you are NOT equal with the majority of the population? I doubt it.


The state should stay out of this anyway as it is a Church issue. Let each church decide if certain people can get married, than if you can't get married in that church, that religion isn't for you obviously... so switch.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:47 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

Embryo wrote:
I'm actually glad that the ban was upheld. Andrew Sullivan has convinced me that using courts to advance this particular civil rights cause is not the best-case scenario.

Don't get me wrong, I was hoping that it would be overturned just based on the sheer net positive effect. But the truth is that California didn't fall off at all. Gay marriage advocates failed big time on Prop 8. They deserved the defeat because they made a ton of stupid decisions, alienated potential allies (especially in communities and organizations of color) and ran a cowardly campaign that played down gay people and ran against the proposition rather than in support of gay marriage rights.

Having a court overturn the people's will would simply reward that failure and create the appearance that the gay rights movement succeeded only based on dirty legal tricks even in the face of being clearly defeated fair and square at the ballot box.

This is much better for the overall cause of gay marriage rights. There will be a new proposition next time the chance arises which will repeal prop 8. It's a chance for us to do it properly and win on the merits. I'm extremely confident that a gay marriage rights proposition can and will win in California given that the case is made in a compelling, non-cowardly campaign run in an inclusive and honest fashion. So, I'm not worried.


BullllllllllllllSHIT.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 11:54 am
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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Location: http://www.myspace.com/pogopark
 Reply with quote  

leifkolt wrote:

Quote:

Having a court overturn the people's will would simply reward that failure and create the appearance that the gay rights movement succeeded only based on dirty legal tricks even in the face of being clearly defeated fair and square at the ballot box.


I totally get this point. And it is a very strong one.

However, If you were gay and in California, would that make any difference in how you feel? Would any amount of reasoning or justification soften the fact that you are being told you are NOT equal with the majority of the population? I doubt it.


The state should stay out of this anyway as it is a Church issue. Let each church decide if certain people can get married, than if you can't get married in that church, that religion isn't for you obviously... so switch.


I agree with your last point. I agree strongly actually. If gay marriage weren't seemingly on the march I would be strongly advocating for a completely different approach that sought to remove religious marriage entirely from the State's purview. This would get us to an even better place for everyone, where marriage would be available but the state's role would be helpfully and reasonably clarified. But that's not what's happening so far.

But in regards to your first question, I can't speak for someone in such a situation since I'm not (although I have a close family member who is, whom I am overdue to catch up with, so I may bring up the question to him). Based on your rhetorical tone, I'm guessing that you probably can't either. I certainly don't think that having a personal stake in the issue precludes gay Californians from having a larger, strategic view of the situation. Or even democratic principles that may even make them feel weird themselves about a courts-based victory.

But, I cited Andrew Sullivan, who is a gay dude who lives in New York State (I am pretty certain) which is currently not a marriage state (but may soon be due to legislative action). He identifies as a conservative (but is strongly pro-GLBT rights) so I find his perspective to be particularly interesting since he is more in touch with how the "other half" feels about this and how they react to stuff like court decisions.

Anyway he's convinced me that the backlash against gay rights stems in large part from the trend of courts changing the law, which invites conservative consternation by its very nature in comparison to the harder-to-dismiss democratic legitimacy of legislative action. Again, I wouldn't have been unhappy with a SC dismissal of Prop 8 -- but I suspect that in terms of the larger pro-gay-marriage cause, it is best to have a go again in the legislative arena.


Last edited by Embryo on Tue May 26, 2009 12:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:09 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 6359
Location: http://www.myspace.com/pogopark
 Reply with quote  

futuristxen wrote:
Embryo wrote:

This is much better for the overall cause of gay marriage rights. There will be a new proposition next time the chance arises which will repeal prop 8. It's a chance for us to do it properly and win on the merits. I'm extremely confident that a gay marriage rights proposition can and will win in California given that the case is made in a compelling, non-cowardly campaign run in an inclusive and honest fashion. So, I'm not worried.


BullllllllllllllSHIT.


tell us how you really feel.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:10 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
 Reply with quote  

How can you call Embryo's post bullshit but then basically say that Andrew Sullivan convinced you of the same thing.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:12 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
 Reply with quote  

redball wrote:
How can you call Embryo's post bullshit but then basically say that Andrew Sullivan convinced you of the same thing.


That was Embryo talking about himself, unless I missed some other place where Futur agreed with Andrew Sullivan.


Last edited by jakethesnake on Tue May 26, 2009 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:17 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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Embryo, it doesn't matter whether it happens in the courts or through laws. It just needs to happen. The courts actually SHOULD be the ones standing up for gay marriage, because it they are supposed to protect minorities from majority oppression. That they passed on this means that they aren't doing their job.

I find it really patronizing that you could even write that crap.

You're saying gay people don't deserve gay marriage rights because they in your estimation...are not working hard enough. That's a bullshit position to take. If there's even one case of someone working their balls off in Cali on gay rights--then you're wrong.

Equal Rights should not be merit based. That's completely goofy.

And I also think it's even goofier that you cite as your justification for your viewpoint "well this one gay guy said it, so it must be right". Well this one gay girl says you're full of crap. So I guess it evens out, and you should go back to the drawing board :)
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:17 pm
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Where good people go to die.
 Reply with quote  

Embryo...

I get your point.

Try looking at it this way though...

replace gay people getting married with black people getting the right to vote.

Now if the same legal bullshit went down, would you still feel the same?

Your justifications are very political. Politics have a purpose but not when something is morally wrong.

Fuck the politics, equality now.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:22 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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Oh jeez. I'm so out of it today. Okay.. enjoy an afternoon vacation from me. Sorry, Futuristxen.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:30 pm
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