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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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R. Kamidees



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4834
Location: where the wild things are
Re: France vs. Scientology  Reply with quote  

Jesse wrote:

I don't think that standards of constitutionality can be applied only to government bodies. I am pretty sure there are lots of things that non-governments can do to violate constitutions, and be held unconstitutional.


Ok, that makes sense now.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 12:01 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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jstile wrote:
But... these Muslims live in France. France is not a Muslim country, it is a highly secular one. Why should it cause any more concern that they ban headscarves than if they were to ban crosses or and other religious sign? You either ban them all, or you let them all slide, otherwise you single out one religion as being more important than any other. Your point has no relevance in this context.
A headscarf is not a crescent and star. It is of more concern for the reason that I already stated, which is no less relevant for your having said so.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 12:02 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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Bullshit. It's a religious signifier. What about a turban or a kippah? Have they got more right to be worn than a cross or a Palm of Fatima? The headscarf represents what you outlined in a Muslim society, yes. In a western European society, it is a religious symbol above all. You're still giving it more credence than any other symbol without really having a solid argument here.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 12:42 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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jstile wrote:
Bullshit. It's a religious signifier. What about a turban or a kippah? Have they got more right to be worn than a cross or a Palm of Fatima? The headscarf represents what you outlined in a Muslim society, yes. In a western European society, it is a religious symbol above all. You're still giving it more credence than any other symbol without really having a solid argument here.
The argument is that it serves a purpose other than symbolism for the women wearing it.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 12:53 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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Nah man, that's your argument. Mine is that the headscarf is a religious symbol. You can't privilege one religious symbol over another due to its cultural purpose. If it's a religious symbol, and the government chooses to ban religious symbols, then it has to be banned regardless of its meaning or use. Saying that it is more wack to ban a headscarf than a cross is irrelevant because they are being banned for exactly the same reason.
What's your view on schools banning knives but allowing kirpans?
Post Mon May 25, 2009 1:07 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9256
Location: london
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i see scientologists like those mediums that pretend to talk to dead relatives of people who are about to die of cancer. both of em are nuggets

dad had a mate who went in there once back in the day, took his family for all they worth, house, car everything.

not as bad as the catholics tho, at least the scientologists wait until you're an adult to rape ya.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 1:11 pm
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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 2728
Location: Vote for me and i'll vote for you.
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ok so i live 4 blocks away from the minneapolis dianetcis center. its one block down from my gym. what would you guys think about me giving you a full report of what happens when i go in there and act like i am into that shit?

because one day when i am bored i will go in there and get a full report. however, i suspect i wont get far without giving any cash. ha ha. but i always have wanted to go in and see what crap they will feed me. i just keep forgetting.

having others to share the experience with might make me just do it.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 2:03 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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jstile wrote:
You can't privilege one religious symbol over another due to its cultural purpose.
I disagree!

Quote:

If it's a religious symbol, and the government chooses to ban religious symbols, then it has to be banned regardless of its meaning or use.
Right, which is only part of why I think that's a stupid policy. Its fairness is illusory, as it privileges religious cultures that don't require symbolic representation.

Quote:

Saying that it is more wack to ban a headscarf than a cross is irrelevant because they are being banned for exactly the same reason.
The reason for doing something doesn't trump its effect.

Quote:

What's your view on schools banning knives but allowing kirpans?
I think I am in favour of it, especially since they are most commonly dull. I'm open to argument on this though.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 2:03 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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I can't replicate your sentence-by-sentence breakdown. Too many brackets to worry about.

France's social policy isn't generally geared towards its immigrant population, as I'm sure you're aware. Anyway, the banning of religious symbols is something that is a product of the French ideas of nationhood and social cohesion. France's Universalist notion of citizenship is one that supposedly holds for all people for all time, regardless of race, gender etc. In pursuing this model of citizenship, France has become almost hyper-secular. The intention of laws like La Loi Stasi (the one that bans religious symbols) is to maintain this intended cohesion... or enforce it, depending on how you look at it.
Basically, France wants all its citizens to be equal, but taken to the extreme. So the banning of headscarves and everything else is an effort to make the French population, well, French. You can argue that Muslim women have more to lose, but they live in a country that is pretty much hell bent on homogeneity. I hate this argument, because in itself it is hugely debatable, but the French government provides free schooling so if it wants to enforce its secularism then who's gonna stop it?
So, rather circuitously, what I'm saying is that there is no intended fairness behind this law. It's intention is to promote the universal citizen. Whether or not you agree with that, well I'm sure I can guess. I think it's a stupid policy too, but I don't agree with your assessment.

Oh and:

jesse wrote:
The reason for doing something doesn't trump its effect.


Ends justify the means?
Post Mon May 25, 2009 3:16 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Location: privileged homeless
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jstile wrote:
I can't replicate your sentence-by-sentence breakdown. Too many brackets to worry about.
That's cool; what you posted pretty much takes care of the rest of the argument anyway. That is, I think we each see the other's point and where we differ and it's fine.

Quote:

jesse wrote:
The reason for doing something doesn't trump its effect.
Ends justify the means?
No, "means" doesn't mean "means" the way you mean it to mean "means." In the cliché, "means" means method, not intent. In fact, intent falls more under "ends" than "means" in this meaning.

It's not my intent to be mean!
Post Mon May 25, 2009 3:53 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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Jesse wrote:
jstile wrote:
I can't replicate your sentence-by-sentence breakdown. Too many brackets to worry about.
That's cool; what you posted pretty much takes care of the rest of the argument anyway. That is, I think we each see the other's point and where we differ and it's fine.


Agreed.

jstile wrote:
]
jesse wrote:
The reason for doing something doesn't trump its effect.
Ends justify the means?
No, "means" doesn't mean "means" the way you mean it to mean "means." In the cliché, "means" means method, not intent. In fact, intent falls more under "ends" than "means" in this meaning.

It's not my intent to be mean![/quote]

Uh, I think I follow. I think I meant... The ends (having a Universalist society) justify the means (controversial policies that essentially ignore difference). It's not important anyway.

So, back to the original topic: Scientology clearly does a lot of shady stuff, I think we're past arguing that. I'm not saying that other religions don't do shady shit, in fact all the major ones have definitely out-shadied scientology. Thing is, I'm of the opinion that this isn't really great. If there's a chance to stop a movement that acts in this manner, and to stop it legally, then go for it. I know there's a lot of counter-arguments concerning discriminatory practice, but I don't really think that the good scientology may well do outweighs the bad.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 5:44 pm
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cakes



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2586
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C.R.A.Z.Y wrote:
ok so i live 4 blocks away from the minneapolis dianetcis center. its one block down from my gym. what would you guys think about me giving you a full report of what happens when i go in there and act like i am into that shit?
i kind of did this once. i let the scientologist guy at the mall question me. pretended i didn't already despise their existance. i recalled the event in this thread: http://www.strangefamousrecords.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=669808#669808

i remember him talking in circles about how anti "therapy" he is and how pro "talking about your experiences to someone who has been trained in a day/weekend" he is. i held in so many eye rollings. so many.

i would love to hear the story if you went, crazy. i never went for a personality test. i've learned how to pass anger and share straight informaiton instead, so it may be interesting to do so now that i can form better arguments. in my experience, it all just sounded ridiculously bogus.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 12:54 pm
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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 2728
Location: Vote for me and i'll vote for you.
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cakes wrote:
C.R.A.Z.Y wrote:
ok so i live 4 blocks away from the minneapolis dianetcis center. its one block down from my gym. what would you guys think about me giving you a full report of what happens when i go in there and act like i am into that shit?
i kind of did this once. i let the scientologist guy at the mall question me. pretended i didn't already despise their existance. i recalled the event in this thread: http://www.strangefamousrecords.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=669808#669808

i remember him talking in circles about how anti "therapy" he is and how pro "talking about your experiences to someone who has been trained in a day/weekend" he is. i held in so many eye rollings. so many.

i would love to hear the story if you went, crazy. i never went for a personality test. i've learned how to pass anger and share straight informaiton instead, so it may be interesting to do so now that i can form better arguments. in my experience, it all just sounded ridiculously bogus.

good stuff, ok so i just read your post and saw that machine picture. what i wonder is what scientific validity that machine has, how it works, what it really measures, etc. i mean, lie dtectors are machines that work to detect mental figures, however, what the heck does this machine do and how? it would be interesting to see if their little meter was actually a valid piece of scientific equipment or not.

heh. so next time i am bored and walk by ill go in that place for kicks and write back about it. im so tired and harried though, so it wont be for a while.

im stressed! ha ha. to them thats more the better reason why i should come visit. for me, i just like a chuckle. that will unstress me. a chuckle. at scientology.

last time i was visiting nashville, a year or so ago, my tour guide was a scientologist and he was all telling me about how i should get into it and what it can do, and i cut straight to the chase and asked about the evil alien spirits clinging to my soul ruining my life and he got angry and wouldnt talk about it. and i asked in a nice way. touche. i guess i have to pay 100,000 to get that access to info. i'd rather watch stargate for free on hulu.
Post Tue May 26, 2009 3:43 pm
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adic



Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 727
Location: SJC
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quote]
good stuff, ok so i just read your post and saw that machine picture. what i wonder is what scientific validity that machine has, how it works, what it really measures, etc. i mean, lie dtectors are machines that work to detect mental figures, however, what the heck does this machine do and how? it would be interesting to see if their little meter was actually a valid piece of scientific equipment or not.
[/quote]

The machine is only there to trick people into thinking it actually does something... it doesn't...
Post Tue May 26, 2009 3:50 pm
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cakes



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2586
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adic wrote:
The machine is only there to trick people into thinking it actually does something... it doesn't...
also what i'm thinking. i should have thought about kittens to see what would happen.

C.R.A.Z.Y. wrote:
last time i was visiting nashville, a year or so ago, my tour guide was a scientologist and he was all telling me about how i should get into it and what it can do, and i cut straight to the chase and asked about the evil alien spirits clinging to my soul ruining my life and he got angry and wouldnt talk about it.
i hear that the whole point of buying into the business is so that you can work your way up to being ready for information like this. that you don't learn about how we came about until pretty high up. i honestly heard from someone who claimed to be an ex-scientologist that they tell you if you learn the information before you're ready that you'll become "retarded." seriously. they also talked about a friend who was scared to watch the scientology south park episode because of this, even after she had left the organization, but when she saw her friends were fine, she decided to watch it.
Post Wed May 27, 2009 7:50 am
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