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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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Location: London
France vs. Scientology  Reply with quote  

Allez les bleus!


Quote:



Scientology on trial in France

The Church of Scientology has gone on trial in the French capital, Paris, accused of organised fraud.

The case centres on a complaint by a woman who says she was pressured into paying large sums of money after being offered a free personality test.

The church, which is fighting the charges, denies that any mental manipulation took place.

France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case.

It will be the first time the church has appeared as a defendant in a fraud case in France. Previous court cases have involved individual Scientologists.

Books and medication

The woman at the centre of the case says she was approached by church members in Paris 10 years ago, and offered a free personality test. But, she says, she ended up spending 21,000 euros ($29,400, 18,400) on lessons, books and medicines she was told would cure her poor mental state.

Her lawyers are arguing that the church systematically seeks to make money by means of mental pressure and the use of scientifically dubious "cures".

A lawyer for the church, Patrick Maisonneuve, said: "We will contest every charge and prove that there was no mental manipulation."

The church's spokeswoman in France said it was being "hounded" by the French courts.

Scientology was founded in the United States in the 1954 by science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard. High profile supporters include the Hollywood stars John Travolta and Tom Cruise.

In Germany last year, it was declared unconstitutional.

However, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8066743.stm
Post Mon May 25, 2009 9:13 am
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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awesome. scientology is a scary cult. it should absolutely be regarded as a fraud.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 9:47 am
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R. Kamidees



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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Re: France vs. Scientology  Reply with quote  


Quote:


In Germany last year, it was declared unconstitutional.

However, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.




Ok, how can a religion be unconstitutional? It can be illegal, but my understanding of the word is that if a piece of legislation contradicts with a country's founding constitution, it is unconstitutional.

Also, did Spain add Scientology to the register, or did they agree that it should be re-entered?


edit: oh also, fuck Scientology. I'm pretty sure that all organized religions are a scam, but most do not rob their patrons quite so quickly, feel the need for their own navy, and are not as litigious as Scientology.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 9:55 am
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Re: France vs. Scientology  Reply with quote  

R. Kamidees wrote:

Quote:

In Germany last year, it was declared unconstitutional.
Ok, how can a religion be unconstitutional? It can be illegal, but my understanding of the word is that if a piece of legislation contradicts with a country's founding constitution, it is unconstitutional.
This article from Time Magazine expands the reasoning around how the organization can be unconstitutional.

I don't think that standards of constitutionality can be applied only to government bodies. I am pretty sure there are lots of things that non-governments can do to violate constitutions, and be held unconstitutional.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 10:09 am
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icarus502
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Fuck this lady.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 10:36 am
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Jesse



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icarus502 wrote:
Fuck this lady.
Although I love you dearly, sometimes I cannot help but wonder if you are mental.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 10:38 am
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icarus502
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Jesse wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
Fuck this lady.
Although I love you dearly, sometimes I cannot help but wonder if you are mental.

Of course I am.
Obviously, everything I know about her is here:

Quote:


The woman at the centre of the case says she was approached by church members in Paris 10 years ago, and offered a free personality test. But, she says, she ended up spending 21,000 euros ($29,400, 18,400) on lessons, books and medicines she was told would cure her poor mental state.



So she threw a bunch of money at Scientology, expecting results, and now is suing because they didn't make her happy. A fool and her money...

And that's why I can't hate Scientology. They're more or less upfront with the grift: you throw some money here, we'll do our best to brainwash you. They don't, outside of Clearwater, FL and Hollywood, CA, parlay the money to political influence. The money's money to them. And, actually, it works for enough people that the money keeps coming in. To that end, they are one of the most honest, least pernicious religions on the planet. They rob the rich the foolish rich and keep it. They're not trying to disenfranchise gay people, or kill non-believers, or take away birth control or nothing like that. So I don't give a shit about Scientology. I have to question anyone who really does. Like, why? Have you ever been at risk? Do you even know any of them? It's all nonsense, of course. But this lady knew the game but she still ended up on her back.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 10:52 am
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Bring that Beat Back



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France should win this war. I mean look at their track record.

edit/

I'm with icarus on this. Just because you're an idiot doesn't mean your case belongs in a court room.


And religions taking money and promising miracles aint some new shit.
If they ban Scientology as a fraudulent religion, they better be ready to start looking at all religions.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 10:52 am
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Jesse



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icarus502 wrote:
They're not trying to disenfranchise gay people, ...
Sure they are.

I don't think it's worse than actual religions, but I hate actual religions quite a bit so it doesn't propel it up very high to be held above them. There is less of an excuse for it than other religions, however, since it hasn't got the weight of cultural tradition behind it.

I don't think that just because it's easy enough to muster up some contempt for someone who gets badly hornswoggled and led down the garden path that means that no-one should interfere with individuals or organizations who seek to hornswoggle others and lead them down the garden path.

Some people haven't got your acuity or ready analysis; some people are genuinely kind of dim. I don't see throwing them to the wolves as good policy, especially when it privileges the wolves.

I wouldn't put Scientology in my top ten things I care about or anything, but fuck IT, not her, is how I feel.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:03 am
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Bring that Beat Back wrote:
I'm with icarus on this. Just because you're an idiot doesn't mean your case belongs in a court room.
Every case belongs in a courtroom. Courtrooms exist so cases can be tried in them.

Quote:

If they ban Scientology as a fraudulent religion, they better be ready to start looking at all religions.
Five years ago they banned crosses, stars of david and (this one is wack) headscarves from being worn by students in public schools.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:08 am
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icarus502
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Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Jesse wrote:
Bring that Beat Back wrote:
I'm with icarus on this. Just because you're an idiot doesn't mean your case belongs in a court room.
Every case belongs in a courtroom. Courtrooms exist so cases can be tried in them.

Quote:

If they ban Scientology as a fraudulent religion, they better be ready to start looking at all religions.
Five years ago they banned crosses, stars of david and (this one is wack) headscarves from being worn by students in public schools.


Why is it any worse to ban headscarves? Because the headscarves are a product, but not an emblem, of the religion?
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:15 am
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icarus502
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Jesse wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
They're not trying to disenfranchise gay people, ...
Sure they are.



That link doesn't show what you purport it shows! It basically says "Scientology has a history of homophobia but that may or may not represent their current beliefs." Nowhere does it implicate Scientology in the specific efforts to disenfranchise gays. On the other hand: Mormons. Much, much worse than Scientologists in every way.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:20 am
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Jesse



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icarus502 wrote:
Why is it any worse to ban headscarves? Because the headscarves are a product, but not an emblem, of the religion?
Not exactly. More because to many women and girls who wear them, it's a question of modesty (as their culture has instilled it in them) as much or more than of demonstrating faith. It's like telling western girls they can't wear shirts anymore in school.

Anyway, of course Mormons are worse. I would also cheerlead practically anyone suing the CoLDS!
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:26 am
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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
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it might seem harmless for a bunch of creeps to just rip off impressionable richie riches, but, when people start to suffer and die then it is not ok. i dont know these videos are 100 percent true but if theres a grain of truth its pretty bad.

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it''s alleged that their main tactic is to convince sick or mentally ill people to forgo treatment, and instead take their money then when they get sick or go crazy they take every last penny and leave them to die or something on par.

<object><param></param><param></param><param></param></object> this lady never shuts the fuck up. its like she thinks talking a lot at the dude makes her right. <object><param></param><param></param><param></param></object>

whenever anyone questions them publicly within free speech they get super crazy like some right wing evangelical christians and then the empty bobble headed dumb fucks ramble on and on about " how many crimes have you covered up? " like some kind of paranoid fuckers. thats cool someone questions your behavior and you just ramble on and on like never shutting the fuck up about a bunch of imaginary crimes. someone points a finger they point it back super absurd.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:42 am
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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Location: London
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Jesse wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
Why is it any worse to ban headscarves? Because the headscarves are a product, but not an emblem, of the religion?
Not exactly. More because to many women and girls who wear them, it's a question of modesty (as their culture has instilled it in them) as much or more than of demonstrating faith. It's like telling western girls they can't wear shirts anymore in school.

Anyway, of course Mormons are worse. I would also cheerlead practically anyone suing the CoLDS!


But... these Muslims live in France. France is not a Muslim country, it is a highly secular one. Why should it cause any more concern that they ban headscarves than if they were to ban crosses or and other religious sign? You either ban them all, or you let them all slide, otherwise you single out one religion as being more important than any other. Your point has no relevance in this context.
Post Mon May 25, 2009 11:57 am
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