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so whats the real deal with guantanamo
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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instead of using their political capital to take a courageous stand, even if necessary by recanting their mistakes, they take comfort in it is because it means they might be able to withstand this scandal if they can manage only to do nothing for long enough.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 10:33 pm
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z-spot22



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 3098
Location: chicago
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TurnpikeGates wrote:
z-spot22 wrote:
no one is innocent

either way

either side

we all suck


What do you mean, "either side"?


meaning all of humanity.... they are "terrorists" because they are fighting for their beliefs which dont coincide with ours.... same goes for the Catholic Church and the crusades and on and on.... killing in the name of God/gods and it will never end.

dont get me wrong, actual convicted terrorists should do time but there's a lot of people there who arent.....anyways, my point was basically humanity is to blame
Post Wed May 20, 2009 1:25 pm
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6297
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Obama is officially becoming Bill Clinton II.

Just wanted to throw that out there. It's early but I'm beginning to regret, if not my vote, certainly my enthusiasm.
Post Wed May 20, 2009 11:22 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21493
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:-/

meh.


meh.


meh.


meh.

Oh yeah

and meh.

mmmmmmmmmmeh.

meh.

meh meh.

mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

MEH.

M-E-H.


fucking people, man.
Post Wed May 20, 2009 11:59 pm
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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z-spot22 wrote:
TurnpikeGates wrote:
z-spot22 wrote:
no one is innocent

either way

either side

we all suck


What do you mean, "either side"?


meaning all of humanity.... they are "terrorists" because they are fighting for their beliefs which dont coincide with ours.... same goes for the Catholic Church and the crusades and on and on.... killing in the name of God/gods and it will never end.

dont get me wrong, actual convicted terrorists should do time but there's a lot of people there who arent.....anyways, my point was basically humanity is to blame


Gotcha. Just think it's weird to conceptualize the main struggle in the world right now as "terrorists" versus "us."
Post Thu May 21, 2009 1:20 am
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shambhala



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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Sage Francis wrote:

M-E-H.


fucking people, man.


Dunno if that was aimed at what I had to say or not, but I'm not really the guy who makes those kinds of comments just for the fuck of it or to be trendy. Other people have been knocking Obama because they want to feel different; I haven't gone there, but his policies are beginning to speak for themselves.

Maintaining military commissions for gitmo detainees is full-stop, a break of a campaign promise. I'm sorry but you can't spin that in any way other than what it is: a violation of a major campaign platform. Everyone expected that he would provide adequate legal justice for these people, many of whom were not combatants, who have had their rights violated and been treated like subhumans, and who deserve a fair trial. Period. That was important for me; maybe not for you.

Not releasing the photos of torture victims shows to me that he's not willing to acknowledge just how dark the past decade was for western enlightenment ideals, and puts the lie to his statements on transparency. We cannot move on from this period unless we are willing to shine a light on the dark corners of the Bush Administration's torture policy. He is actually acting as if the debate on torture is still active, where for me it is completely over. If we're committed to the self-reflection that will ensure that we won't walk down this road again, we need a FULL accounting of everything that was done. He led his voters to believe that he would support such inquiries.

He let Benjamin Netanyahu walk into the white house and pressure the US into harsher rhetoric against Iranian weapons development without getting a concurrent promise for an Israeli commitment to a Palestinian state. That is, at best, a diplomatic failure, and at worst a continuation of Bush's policies toward the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I've said from the beginning that I wasn't comfortable with the money we were/are throwing at AIG and other financial institutions; and that I think his connections to powerful finance interests played a large role in that. The myth that the finance industry is a Republican stalwart is just that...a myth. They've been far more closely aligned to Democratic candidates than Republicans in the last fifteen years. Part of Obama's appeal was that his broad fundraising base would negate that interest. That hasn't happened, and continued policies of handouts to financial institutions while people are losing their homes and drowning in credit card debt, is not my bag.

I'm still hopeful about an Obama institution, but can someone point to the major victories that he's had since taking office? He's floundering. Period. I have never been a big Democrat booster; I liked Obama individually, and I thought that his foreign and domestic policy would be MUCH more robust than it's been. This is a repeat of his Harvard Law Review days, which was my greatest fear about his presidency.

People supported Bill Clinton for eight years because he was "our guy," while he advanced predatory international loan regimes, increased the scope of domestic surveillance, deregulated the financial industry, slashed welfare, and let Rwanda burn. I am not going to avoid calling Obama out on his lazy policies just because I had a lot invested in his election. I know as well as anyone that he can't accomplish everything, but he is letting himself be bullied by people like Dick Cheney and Benjamin Netanyahu, and the only way he's going to get the message is if his base starts getting restless (which they should!). He is slightly vain, and his heart is with us, but if we just lay back in the easy chair and ignore his (mounting) political failures, we'll get a second Clinton administration.

I'm still "hopeful" about a lot of things, and I recognize that there have been some good events (largely precipitated by events that made certain policy shifts inevitable). If we get a real health care plan passed and if there is some significant movement in the drug war, word. But for now I'm seeing a lot of business as usual. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just calling it like I see it...

Edit: Captain Meh, do you think that when Karl Rove is writing WSJ editorials praising Obama backtracking on "national security" campaign promises, that it is a good thing? Obviously he's doing so to hurt him, but he has a point.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124286200693341141.html
Post Thu May 21, 2009 2:49 am
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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I have to agree with Shamb here. Barack's approach is becoming frayed by the interests he vowed to take on. Congress has started to fall back on its old habits because the political drive it expected to come from the White House has not come forcefully or clearly enough.

The military commissions and gitmo are both examples of Obama biting off more than he has proven willing to chew. It's real simple, but politically complicated. We don't give a fuck about the politics. We voted for him to do it because it is really fucking simple: bring the prisoners to US courts, try them, convict them or release them.

I did take heart from the fact that in response to all this political maneuvering by Congress yesterday, the White House announced the first trial outside of Gitmo. Perhaps Congress' craven opportunism will shock the White House into backing away from the military commissions.

And it's possible that Congress doesn't intend to block Obama's closing of Gitmo but instead just wanted to head any "soft on crime" talking points off at the pass, before they could gain traction. In that sense the vote yesterday was probably more theatre than policy.

Let's see what happens next. Still, shit needs to start going more smoothly or we're going to be very frustrated by the end of dude's first term.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 am
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Embryo



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and oh, good to see you dude.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 6:44 am
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Embryo



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Quote:

he US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay is a "misguided experiment" and a "mess" that must be cleaned up, US President Barack Obama has said.

Mr Obama said it had weakened national security and rallied enemies of the US, but he was determined to close it by January 2010 whilst respecting US law.

He was speaking at the US National Archives, where the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are kept.

...

Transfer concern
...
Mr Obama said the administration was reviewing every one of the 240 detainees still held at Guantanamo and considering what to do with them.

"We are treating these cases with the care and attention that the law requires and our security demands," he said, describing the Bush-era approach as "poorly-planned, [and] haphazard".

'No dangerous releases'

Explaining the basis of his administration's approach to terrorist suspects and Guantanamo Bay, Mr Obama said the existence of the prison camp probably "created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained".

He conceded that following through on his pledge to close Guantanamo would be "difficult and complex", but insisted it was possible.

"As president, I refuse to allow this problem to fester. Our security interests won't permit it. Our courts won't allow it."...

"We are not going to release anyone if it would endanger our national security, nor will we release detainees within the United States who endanger the American people."
...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8062017.stm

Good -- this is the right policy and the right tone for him to use.

But the proof will be in the pudding.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 10:31 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6278
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Embryo wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8062017.stm

Good -- this is the right policy and the right tone for him to use.

But the proof will be in the pudding.


Would you say a "filibuster proof" pudding?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00196
Post Thu May 21, 2009 10:35 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
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Wild, unqualified speculation: Failed attempts to date were done in order to out those who aren't cooperative and rouse outrage from the left. If Congress won't get his back then he can at least get the media and people on the streets behind him.

If we're going to be pissed about something that's happening right now then we should be pissed at the concealed weapons + credit card rights bill. What a sham to attach and vote on the bill in that way.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 11:54 am
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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Location: http://www.myspace.com/pogopark
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jakethesnake wrote:
Embryo wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8062017.stm

Good -- this is the right policy and the right tone for him to use.

But the proof will be in the pudding.


Would you say a "filibuster proof" pudding?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00196


now that Congress has acted wicked tough on this, I think they'll feel better about going along with the uber-popular President.

The other thing is Harry Reid's horrible poll numbers, which came out immediately before this vote. It's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally thinly transparent what happened here. Obama is probably very angry at Reid right now.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 12:09 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Embryo wrote:
jakethesnake wrote:
Embryo wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8062017.stm

Good -- this is the right policy and the right tone for him to use.

But the proof will be in the pudding.


Would you say a "filibuster proof" pudding?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00196


now that Congress has acted wicked tough on this, I think they'll feel better about going along with the uber-popular President.

The other thing is Harry Reid's horrible poll numbers, which came out immediately before this vote. It's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally thinly transparent what happened here. Obama is probably very angry at Reid right now.


You're probably right. I hate politics.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 12:24 pm
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Embryo



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more and more i'm feeling you on that buddy.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 12:32 pm
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redball



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Location: Northern New Jersey
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No you aren't. You fucking love politics and cannot avoid them. The only other option is that you're completely addicted and can't help yourself. If so, I feel like this forum is an enabler.
Post Thu May 21, 2009 12:43 pm
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