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so whats the real deal with guantanamo
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3flip



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 2201
Location: Minneapolis
so whats the real deal with guantanamo  Reply with quote  

ive found a little bit http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8052999.stm but i still have a lot of questions unanswered. if detainees are let go are they simply going to be transferred to other secret CIA camps? whats the deal?
Post Tue May 19, 2009 12:48 pm
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Where good people go to die.
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As far as I can tell, that's the problem.

They aren't really sure of what to do with the detainees. And, I just heard on the news that Democrats in congress are NOT going to approve the 80mil Dollars Obama would need to close down and try all the detainees. They want a more specific plan of where detainees would go and all that fun stuff.

The whole thing is pretty sick, especially when one considers that one of the main reasons for not storing the detainees in American jails is because than we wouldn't be able to legally deprive them of their due process or do fun things like torture them.

I wonder how many detainees are 100% innocent? I have a feeling if there was a legitimate way to know for sure than I'd be even more ashamed of this whole debacle. (Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a few real terrorists there too)
Post Tue May 19, 2009 1:47 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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leifkolt wrote:
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a few real terrorists there too)
If for no other reason than that being systematically deprived of human rights is a pretty good reason for becoming a terrorist, you're probably right.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 1:49 pm
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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
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Jesse wrote:
leifkolt wrote:
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a few real terrorists there too)
If for no other reason than that being systematically deprived of human rights is a pretty good reason for becoming a terrorist, you're probably right.


There are no good reasons to become a terrorist. (Assuming that by "terrorist" we mean the kind that kill innocent people.)
Post Tue May 19, 2009 2:35 pm
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1856
Location: Orange County
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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
Jesse wrote:
leifkolt wrote:
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a few real terrorists there too)
If for no other reason than that being systematically deprived of human rights is a pretty good reason for becoming a terrorist, you're probably right.


There are no good reasons to become a terrorist. (Assuming that by "terrorist" we mean the kind that kill innocent people.)


however, there are tons of people in the US jails that have killed innocent people.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 2:40 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
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Charlie Foxtrot wrote:
There are no good reasons to become a terrorist. (Assuming that by "terrorist" we mean the kind that kill innocent people.)
Well, in any literal sense, being a "terrorist" has nothing to do with whether you kill anyone or the innocence of anyone you do or don't kill.

A terrorist endeavours to effect change through making people scared that something bad will happen if that change is not effected.

So yeah, it's a pretty terrible policy. It generally doesn't work and when it does work it's tenuous as well as awful. There is not really any problem to which I would propose the solution of some terrorism.

But there are lots of good reasons to become a terrorist. I mean, when I say "good reason," that's not strictly sensible considering that I don't think it is a good thing, but I do think there are conditions that drive people into desperate acts - even unconscionable ones - where the people who created the conditions that did the driving are more culpable for the fallout from those acts than the actors themselves are.

People just aren't terrorists for fun, right? It's a lousy solution to awful problems. When you wreck someone's whole shit and make it more important for them to interfere with your shit-wrecking mechanism than any other thing that person might do with his or her life and they start terrorizing you toward that end... they had a pretty good reason to become a terrorist.

Even if it's no good that they are one.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 2:46 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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Yeah, I don't think it's about good or bad reasons per se as much as it is about understanding why people reject alternatives to armed resistance.

I think Jesse was just taking the opportunity to highlight the fact that punitive detention without due process is a great way to demonstrate to people that you are evil and should be opposed by any and all means necessary.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 2:49 pm
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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
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Jesse wrote:

But there are lots of good reasons to become a terrorist. I mean, when I say "good reason," that's not strictly sensible considering that I don't think it is a good thing, but I do think there are conditions that drive people into desperate acts - even unconscionable ones - where the people who created the conditions that did the driving are more culpable for the fallout from those acts than the actors themselves are.



Well if you're going to define it that way, then I agree with you
Post Tue May 19, 2009 4:09 pm
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O2K
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Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Quote:

Gitmo Detainee’s ‘Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel,’ Waterboarding ‘Far Down The List Of Things They Did’
Last week, two British High Court judges ruled against releasing documents describing the treatment of Binyam Mohamed, a British resident who is currently being held at Guantanamo Bay. The judges said the Bush administration “had threatened to withhold intelligence cooperation with Britain if the information were made public.”

But The Daily Telegraph reported over the weekend that the documents actually “contained details of how British intelligence officers supplied information to [Mohamed's] captors and contributed questions while he was brutally tortured.” In fact, it was British officials, not the Americans, who pressured Foreign Secretary David Miliband “to do nothing that would leave serving MI6 officers open to prosecution.” According to the Telegraph’s sources, the documents describe particularly gruesome interrogation tactics:

The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said.

Another source familiar with the case said: “British intelligence officers knew about the torture and didn’t do anything about it.”

“It is very clear who stands to be embarrassed by this and who is being protected by this secrecy. It is not the Americans, it is Labour ministers,” former shadow home secretary David Davis said. But one unnamed U.S. House Judiciary Committee member told the Telegraph that if President Obama “doesn’t act we could hold a hearing or write to subpoena the documents. We need to know what’s in those documents.”

Mohamed remains at Guantanamo Bay and “is currently on hunger strike.” “All terror charges against him were dropped last year,” the Telegraph reported.



http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/09/mohamed-torture-uk-us/
Post Tue May 19, 2009 4:32 pm
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z-spot22



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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Location: chicago
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no one is innocent

either way

either side

we all suck
Post Tue May 19, 2009 5:52 pm
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prolific memorie



Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1412
Location: Pieces of my brain dripping from the wall i was leaning against,that the cleaning lady found first.
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Well besides all that, today the Senate announced they will not help to fund anything that has to be covered financially due to the closing of the facility.

mem
Post Tue May 19, 2009 7:52 pm
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Travadone



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 2977
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if it pays right ill work for either side.

sidenote:i did not read the thread.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 8:07 pm
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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z-spot22 wrote:
no one is innocent

either way

either side

we all suck


What do you mean, "either side"?
Post Tue May 19, 2009 8:09 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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this sucks.

they should have known this was going to have a political cost when they started this process right off the damn bat.

now their political muscle memory is kneejerking them in a fearful direction because they don't want to get dukakised.

it's fucking stupid. this prison is a crime against humanity and even a hard solution is infinitely more right than continuing to shuffle our feet and our made-up evidence sheets. and there's no reason why democrats should think they can't sell that to the public at a time when the republican platform is cracked in half at the bottom of the atlantic a la the titanic.

we need to get serious about primaries, stat. harry reid is worthless.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 9:26 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
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I agree with Embryo. The answer to this is pretty obvious. But the fact their dragging their feet just proves to me we need to investigate the torture charges fully on every level. As long as people are still working there, who did nasty things on that front, the more difficult it's going to be to get this issue resolved.
Post Tue May 19, 2009 10:26 pm
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