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Geometrik



Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 1724
Location: Massaworcesterbridge
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ahhhhh.... i don't mean to perpetuate this. if you felt that it was racist, perhaps from your stand point it was. However i assure you that the column was not meant to be racist. I will review it with your concerns in mind. Seeing my goal here is to communicate, i suppose revision could only help.

Peace
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 1:20 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
Re: Commentary on "Emotional" Hip hop  Reply with quote  

Geometrik wrote:
It is obvious that the world is being pushed into a period change and new development, revamping the way we think and how we act(actually we are the ones doing this, but there are external factors that help the process as well.)


I appreciate that you haven't come like a wishy-washy sucker and started everything with "in my opinion," that style is very annoying and very lame. But all of this talk about revamping, new development...you, being a stranger, haven't given me sufficient reason to believe that you are in any better a position to determine broad social trends than a four year-old. So I must conclude 1) that there are changes happening within you personally that you are attempting to impose on society, 2) you have decided this because of perceived peer dissatisfaction with the government coupled with sincerity, or 3) it's something you read somewhere. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and decided that it's somewhere between 1 and 2, and by the parenthetical sentence I deduce that you are talking about a shift in basic core beliefs that is imminent or happening already within the country. That's imperialist, plain and simple, with or without the demographic pie charts.


Quote:

Hip hop is no exception to this change. In the present moment, we are looking at a time where emotional clearing is encouraged, and this is most apparent in our artform(especially in hip hop, not only because it is still in an infantile state, being so young, but also because of the mind set(s) that hip hop has evolved from).


Again, you make a lot of absolute statements but you offer very little to back them up. Here is also where the insinuations creep in. You say that "In the present moment...emotional clearing is encouraged [in hip hop]..." and go on to say that it is especially apparent "...because of the mind set(s) that hip hop has evolved from)." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the obvious conclusions: hip hop evolved from 1970's Bronx and NYC neighborhoods consisting of mostly black people. The "mind set(s)" are therefore predominantly inner-city black mindsets. The implication is that these "mind set(s)" are directly converse to a new emotional ethic that is encouraged in hip hop. I am not the first nor will I be the last to say that this sounds suspiciously like Sage Francis, Eyedea, Dose, etc...whose "mind set(s)" are about as far from 1970's Bronx residents as can be. Since very little is offered in the way of what these original "mind set(s)" were and how today's rap differs from them, I needed to do a little guesswork, and this is what I came up with.
I also appreciate how you claim here and elsewhere in the short essay how young hip-hop is. Rap is getting on to 35 years-old. Graffiti is about to be 40. B-boying, if we trace it back to gang war dances of the fifties, is older than many of our parents. Recorded rap is young, but the culture is getting on in years.


Quote:

Our artform is evolving. Although one's observations might suggest that music is the cause of this present change, that is not completely true. Music is the reflection of these changes, and at the same time, a contributor to them. In some ways, people are being forced to open their eyes to perceive different perceptions. They are being gently moved to step out of their narrow minded paradigms, and more into what is real(and even that changes from moment to moment.) Much underground hip hop is becoming a catalyst for this awakening.


Again, the insinutaion here is everything. It's the old "underground rap is smart, mainstream rap is doopit" argument that holds no water whatsoever. Mainstream rap consists of one viable white artist, Eminem, and a million, skillion, billion black artists. Underground rap consists of a much higher ratio of viable white artists to viable black artists. Technically, you didn't say anything about race, but in my mind, you didn't have to. The insinuation is there. And the further implication that underground rap is "awakening" anything is a little naive, to me--but that is entirely off the topic.


Quote:

Underground hip hop brings about unity in both direct and indirect ways. Those who wish to label our art form and sub-catagorize it are just attempting to judge weather or not this new interpretative art is marketable. In mainstream/pop culture, the mind frame is if a product is not marketable, why waste time promoting it? If the music or performer does not wield some aspect that can be exploited, the producers immediately turn their noses toward the sky.


You make a lot of assumptions about producers and pop culture, especially about how they "choose to label it." This is especially ironic since you have labeled it yourself, as something that brings about unity, a catalyst for social and intellectual change, etc. By doing this, you have excluded underground rap that does not promote unity or social change--i.e. the Infamous Mobb, whose rhetoric consists mainly of the same old bragging rights and "scenes from my block" that I admit is pretty tired. You have summarily excluded this music from your holy crusade of unity and "anti-major label marketing department" by claiming hip-hop as "ours" and then being so kind as to define its purpose and meaning. Thanks, for nothing.


Quote:

Many in the music industry are blind to the positive effects a performer/writer can actually have on the masses(even though on the flip side of that coin, many promoters and producers know exactly what messages their artists are putting out there, and they use that "dramatic gimmick" to their advantage(i.e. the Eminem)).
It is also these same influential beings who scoff at new styles which deviate from the old way of thinking, and in a world where the concepts of might is right and penis contests have prevailed for so many years(thousands), it isn't too hard to understand why some react so defensively to change. Especially when emotion is involved.


More broad assumptions. And your choosing of Eminem as the "gimmick rapper" is borne of either unfamiliarity with his music or a complete buy-in of the media anti-hype around it. I am not going to exalt Eminem to any undeserved status, but to say he is being used by some label mason to promote a gimmick is bananas...if anything, he's pimping the record industry. And rap music. And hip hop culture. He's not a robot, he didn't just get churned out of the rap factory in order to sell to teenagers. He changed the game, the media perception of what rap is. He woke up some old-timey advertising execs and made them realise that rap was selling like hotcakes to white America...and the smart money is on tacking actual hotcakes onto the rap to increase profits.
Understand yet? What I am saying is that your "us vs. them" mentality is imperialism disguised as a revolutionary ideal...and moreso it smacks of racism considering what the general consensus on "mainstream" and "underground" is. The technical definition does not need to be applied here, convention dictates what these labels imply. I am not saying that YOU implied them, but that they were implied anyway.


Quote:

The point is that people tend to be fearful of change. Most of the time they greet it with resistance. Emotional hip hop is not new, as the desire to express one's self is the life force that breathed inspiration into the art to begin with.


This is more imperialism. And it summarizes a basic contention in the whole essay: the masses are stupid sheep. I disagree, and will do so with my dying breath.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 1:35 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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Reggie for President!!!

Excellent as always....


Quote:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the obvious conclusions: hip hop evolved from 1970's Bronx and NYC neighborhoods consisting of mostly black people. The "mind set(s)" are therefore predominantly inner-city black mindsets. The implication is that these "mind set(s)" are directly converse to a new emotional ethic that is encouraged in hip hop.


I've been trying to school these cats on the FOUNDATION. All this elitism shown by some of these underground cats masks their racism and they don't even see it. Yeah, they acknowledge hiphop was started by inner city blacks and latinos but constantly bring the argument that these "emotional" (i.e white) underground artists are the true school and are gonna change hiphop. Totally contradictory of this unity they constantly preach about.

And all this "The artform is young" business. Just cause you started with it in the early 90's don't mean it wasn't around. I've grown up with it all my life. Numerous times I had to tell cats here there was hiphop before Run DMC and white artists before the Beastie Boys. There was plenty of hiphop before the scope of a lot of these kids' experience.

Reggie, thanks. Keep telling these kids what's up...
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:01 pm
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shapeshifter



Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 60
Location: Massachusetts
Re: Commentary on "Emotional" Hip hop  Reply with quote  

<<I deduce that you are talking about a shift in basic core beliefs that is imminent or happening already within the country. That's imperialist, plain and simple, with or without the demographic pie charts.>>

I'd have to agree that there is some sort of shift going on in basic core beliefs due to what is going on in our society. Look at the Catholic Church, that I completely shifting. New more liberal ways of thinking are working their way into the mainstream...but this has always been a process.


<<" and go on to say that it is especially apparent "...because of the mind set(s) that hip hop has evolved from)." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the obvious conclusions: hip hop evolved from 1970's Bronx and NYC neighborhoods consisting of mostly black people.>>>

I never thought about it like that, that is a good point. I do not think that is what he was implying, but I understand how you could derive that. I think that many are ignorant to that, and what is implied by downplaying the basic roots of hip hop.


<<<And your choosing of Eminem as the "gimmick rapper" is borne of either unfamiliarity with his music or a complete buy-in of the media anti-hype around it. I am not going to exalt Eminem to any undeserved status>>>

I'd have to agree that Eminem does have plenty of emotion in his music, although a lot of it is seen as negative, it is emotion, and he has that right. What I'm hearing now (Techno Versions, and just recently a Rock Version of his Momma Song I could do without). I have mixed feelings about him. But if you really listen to his music, I feel there is a lot more going on there than many realize.


<<<This is more imperialism. And it summarizes a basic contention in the whole essay: the masses are stupid sheep. I disagree, and will do so with my dying breath.>>>

Don't know if the writer meant to come off as imperialistic, but it all comes down to whether he was sharing a view just for the plain reason of the communication, or saying "This is how it is" which I did not get from the article. You made some great points, and pointed out things which I had prior been pretty unaware of. So thank you for that. All and all, I do not think the masses are 'stupid sheep'. Some are uninformed, maybe. But many choose to be. I don't know what we can really do about that or say to it, it's their choice.

Peace
Michelle
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:04 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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im sick of you kids on this board pulling the race card whenever some one says something you don't like.

"It implies that, until today's fabulous "underground," rap's content was facetious and facile. "

what is your problem! Underground rap does not = white rap. There are plenty of underground black rappers, and underground rap started with black rappres.

you are stupid. The end.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:04 pm
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shapeshifter



Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 60
Location: Massachusetts
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<<I've been trying to school these cats on the FOUNDATION. All this elitism shown by some of these underground cats masks their racism and they don't even see it. Yeah, they acknowledge hiphop was started by inner city blacks and latinos but constantly bring the argument that these "emotional" (i.e white) underground artists are the true school and are gonna change hiphop. Totally contradictory of this unity they constantly preach about. >>

I can only speak for myself here. And I'm telling you, I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your informing others about the true roots of hip hop.
Where are you getting the idea that 'white' people think white artists are gonna change hip hop? (And i'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking because I'd like to be informed).
I personally do not equate emotional hip hop with white people. I never even thought about it like that. I did not know that it was implied. I am not arguing against it, I would just like to know where it is implied?
Personally I do not think it was implied in this article. It seems to me that you are assuming that it is, b/c an implication can not theoretically be proven, it is implied, but not said.
The whole purpose of my post is that I would like to be more informed, I am not being a wise ass or trying to argue, just asking an honest question.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:12 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
Re: Commentary on "Emotional" Hip hop  Reply with quote  

Visionary11 wrote:
I'd have to agree that there is some sort of shift going on in basic core beliefs due to what is going on in our society. Look at the Catholic Church, that I completely shifting. New more liberal ways of thinking are working their way into the mainstream...but this has always been a process.


In the bigger picture, conservatism and liberalism change definition and places with good regularity. Kids usually rebel against their parents ideals. People usually blame what is close at hand for their own problems. Ever notice how rock or rebellious music is better when a Republican is president? I have...because it speaks to me. Right now, many 18-30 year-olds are experiencing a resurgence in liberalism, and this is a direct result of the fucked-up practices of the conservatives in power. THese same people were spouting conservative rhetoric in 1997.

I try not to play sides, but obviously that's impossible. One of the most important slogans I ever added to my jingoistic vocabulary is "convictions cause convicts."

August Spies, give me a little more credit. I explained why I pulled the race card in more than 500 words. I said that, technically, there is nothing to say that "underground" equals "white," but the implication is there and it has foundation. Where was Entertainment Weekly's article on Duck Down Records when Black Moon was selling tens of thousands of copies? Why has URB magazine mentioned Sage Francis three times this year but has a one-page (lame) interview with Lif when his lp drops? The contention is there, let's be adult about it.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:16 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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Quote:

I can only speak for myself here. And I'm telling you, I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your informing others about the true roots of hip hop.
Where are you getting the idea that 'white' people think white artists are gonna change hip hop? (And i'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking because I'd like to be informed).



I too didn't think "emotional" rap was only the underground's domain. Or was the white emcess domain. Hell I grew up thinking most of Rap was emotional. From songs like "The Message" to "T.R.O.Y" to "I used to Love Her" just to name a few.

It was replies to posts on this site that schooled me to the elitism in the minds of a lot of these underground fans that artists like Sage, Anticon, Atmosphere, Aesop, etc. had the copyright on so called "emotional" rap or intellectual rap and that mainstream artists are lacking in that department. And I'm constantly arguing with them on that.

Unintentionally or not, there is an air of elitism within these posters where if the artists is not spitting what they can relate to, than they get dismissed. Is some of the mainstream garbage? Yeah. But a lot of the street and bling songs you dismiss as tired actually have intellectual messages for the people they were targeted for, inner city kids. Cause you might not be able to relate doesn't mean it's inferior to what you can relate to intellectually.

I've only preached having an open mind and take each artist for they're own worth. Don't hate on a genre or try to divide the artists into various camps like this essay is doing showing the virtues of one compared to the other. That's elitist and borderline racist
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:45 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Reggie, that was one of the best arguments I've ever seen on a message board.
Donno if it means much.

And goddammit, do I hate the phrase "the race card." As if race as an issue should be dismissed whenever someone suggests that person is using "the race card."

"These texas white boys killed this black man."
"Oh, fine, bring in the race card."

Bullshit.

Obviously, there are times when people use race as an excuse for a more complex problem.
But in this case, I have to side with Reggie, and say that there is subtle, unrecognized racism inherent in the original essay. Racism is seldom as obvious as it used to be. But its just as much here now as it was in the 1950s. Its just a lot more hidden.

Example: Listing your top 5 hip hop artists of all time as Slug Sage Aesop Anticon (insert other white group/artist here).


Last edited by Dee on Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:54 pm
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prolifik



Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 488
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It isn't "racist," and to use that word so carelessly, and to throw it around so cheaply, is a shame.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:54 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Who is throwing it around "cheaply"?
And I'm not saying it is outright racist...I'm agreeing with Reggie. It implies subtle aspects of racism.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:56 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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no it doesn't. You accuse people of racism more than anyone else Djdee. Get over it.

It is, if anything, insulting to people who have to suffer REAL racism to demean the term to this level.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:59 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Ugh.


Racism is racism on any level. There is no "true" racism. There's just racism. To suggest that "lite" racism is ok because criticizing it demeans "real" racism is ridiculous.
Its racism any way you slice it.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:02 pm
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SoundDoctrine



Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 423
Location: Nomad
hmmm...  Reply with quote  

<< "Yeah. But a lot of the street and bling songs you dismiss as tired actually have intellectual messages for the people they were targeted for, inner city kids. Cause you might not be able to relate doesn't mean it's inferior to what you can relate to intellectually." >>

I can't believe what you just said...What can a kid who's mom is working two jobs to put food on the table and keep the lights on relate with stuff like "17's on up is all I ride" or "So much ice, my neck frozen"...To me it's only extending the gap and somewhat pointing a finger and saying "you can't kick it like this, but I can." This is the cycle that alot of, to tell you the truth, black kids grasp (I am black, it is VERY real to me)...I still have family back in projects and run down houses who have candy painted cadillacs with 20 inch rims and big screen TV's...My aunt has a big screen TV and can barley afford to keep the lights on...Here's my point, when it comes to WIDLEY spread music, the content becomes somewhat of a standard...Are we controlled through mind waves...NO...But turn to BET...Check how many video's have a guy with one chain or less, how many have a $12,000 car, how many don't have some kind of champagne spilling in them...It's ridiculous...Now you can't tell me somebody's not going to feel left out here...So don't talk about something being reality to the target audience...And as far as the intellectual part goes...You are pretty much saying, (no racial connotation intended) "Let the monkeys learn how to peel their bananna while we sit here with one already peeled." I have more to say but I wanna get to my next point.

The guy who made this post (I think reggie hit it on the head) obviously came to some recent revelation that there is emotion in hip hop and felt as though we didn't already know that...You said NOTHING new and it was a waste of typing...

"...and all I ask is, Do you like music?..." - Buck65 of Sebutones
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:25 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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You're generalizing mainstream hip hop as all being about rims....its not.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:27 pm
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