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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Much respect.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:51 pm
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eNDTRoDUCINg



Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 122
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i dont belive the heroin isnt bad arguement either. ive been to rehab myself and know the addiction is addiction in whatever form. but heroins got the extra kick that makes non-addictive people addicted. i wouldnt try it cuz i gotta nuff problems being addicted to everything else, but heroins on a whole nother level, nothing else is so physically addictive it has withdrawls like that. in rehab its abstinence, and no other drug has a strongass drug (methodone) as a step-down. i mean u gotta detox for alcohol and everything else, but nothig compares to the H.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:09 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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I believe alcohol CAN compare, in that withdrawl can be a lot more dangerous for the patient....but its not nearly as addictive as heroin.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:11 pm
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lies217



Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 4
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word...
alcohol withdrawls can kill people.
but it takes alot longer and a lot more than "social drinking" or even hard drinking to get serious alcohol dt's.
beleive me...kicking heroin is no fucking joke though.
but i will leave that topic alone...i don't think anyone wan't to hear that shit here.
anyhow...
i believe most people will try heroin to of simple curiousity...
i used to drink and take percocets or vicodins all the time..
then i was able to get regular hook ups for morphine and other, stronger opiates, so when i was first around heroin i was like...
fuck it, i had done most every other opiate...
i went through a long period where i would only do it every few weeks.
that lasted for a couple years.
but in between those episodes i was going crazy with whatever other opiate i could get my hands on...dilaudid, opium, perc etc...these were still "party" times though.
when my connect for these got burnt....
i just ended up where i ended up.
then the "party" was over and i was just on survival mode.
fucked up thing is...
i don't know when i actually crossed that line.
but by the time you do, it's too late.

these are just my experiences though.
i am just trying share my shit..maybe it will help someone out there.
that's what i try to do nowadays...
and also, for the record.
i am by no means the anti-drug guy.
i just can't go that route anymore.
i would never tell someone what to do or not do...
people will find thier own truths.

bye.
[/b]
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:25 am
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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Addiction is not necessarily bad, or more to the point, the meaning of life is not necessarily to stave off addicition and fanatacism. The converse, that we must temper addiction at all costs, is a very Western mode of thought. Eastern theosophies often encourage fanatical mania and in some rare cases, substance addiction.

The biggest problem with substance addiction, from a membership standpoint, is that many drugs shorten your life significantly. Therefore, sub-societies based on taking lethal narcotics on a regular basis don't usually last very long. There are always more to take their place, however.

Since I was very young, my world has been suffused with drugs. Whether it is my line of liberal thinking, the music I listen to, or the clothes I wear, I don't know...but my closest peers and my parents and my family and their peers have mostly been involved in drug use and/or dealing to some degree. I've taken my share of a variety of drugs, but I've never been really hooked on anything except cigarettes...and those I quit last August. I've lost many friends to drugs, but I would never blame a drug for anything. That's like blaming water for making someone drown.

I had a homeless addict explain to me that I was the one fooling myself while he was the one really living, for while I was working a job just in order to stay fed and remain as inconspicuous as possible, he was chasing a high every minute of his day...and while much of that day involved withdrawal and scheming, obtaining the high was like "being elected president" every day. Who am I to say that this is untrue?
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:34 am
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eNDTRoDUCINg



Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 122
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whats dilaudid like? ive only heard about it on drugstore cowmboy. for me, addiction makes some of the best movies. and it makes people struggle, so unfortunately is had helped some of the best music and books.
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 11:53 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Reggie wrote:
Addiction is not necessarily bad, or more to the point, the meaning of life is not necessarily to stave off addicition and fanatacism. The converse, that we must temper addiction at all costs, is a very Western mode of thought. Eastern theosophies often encourage fanatical mania and in some rare cases, substance addiction.

The biggest problem with substance addiction, from a membership standpoint, is that many drugs shorten your life significantly. Therefore, sub-societies based on taking lethal narcotics on a regular basis don't usually last very long. There are always more to take their place, however.

Since I was very young, my world has been suffused with drugs. Whether it is my line of liberal thinking, the music I listen to, or the clothes I wear, I don't know...but my closest peers and my parents and my family and their peers have mostly been involved in drug use and/or dealing to some degree. I've taken my share of a variety of drugs, but I've never been really hooked on anything except cigarettes...and those I quit last August. I've lost many friends to drugs, but I would never blame a drug for anything. That's like blaming water for making someone drown.

I had a homeless addict explain to me that I was the one fooling myself while he was the one really living, for while I was working a job just in order to stay fed and remain as inconspicuous as possible, he was chasing a high every minute of his day...and while much of that day involved withdrawal and scheming, obtaining the high was like "being elected president" every day. Who am I to say that this is untrue?


He explains it better than I did.

Heroin doesn't do itself, is what I'm saying. It doesn't hop out of the bag and cook itself or fly up your nose. In other countries where it is still legal to do so it acts as a much more cost-effective pain medication than what our ridiculous pharmacutical companies charge. When used in this capacity it isn't likely to create an addict any more than Codeine or Vicodin.

And lies217 - first off, so I don't sound like an asshole - thanks a million for your vote of support, it looks like my boy is checking into detox, but the problem is that they won't take him if he might get insurance so he needs to get a letter from his temp agency first...they're really giving him a hard time getting in there.

But I was also the one that mentioned responsible heroin use, so I'll address that, too. ;-)

I would not have mentioned responsible heroin use if I DIDN'T know someone who's done it. You said it's "not true" that it can happen, and I am TELLING you that it IS possible. I didn't make any case for it being the de facto standard because I agree with you that it is certainly not.

I know 40 year old cats that have been using for years and have no problems, and I actually met another one this weekend up in New Hampshire...lives on the lake in a beautiful house...a successful retired (at 41) lawyer...still, even with 365 days and nothing to do, maintains a once a week "habit" without excess. It's certainly the exception to the rule, but it can happen....it's just not likely to (one of the reasons I will always stay away from the shit).

Anyway...hopefully we can move past this silly debate and agree to disagree...because while I'm always about explaining WHY I feel the way I do, it's obvious that people (including me) have made up their minds. Thanks everyone for the vote of support though...I'm going through a really hard time right now with few people to talk to about it that understand. Here I've gotten:

A. Friendly "Good Luck" posts.
B. Accounts from second-hand addicts.
C. Accounts from first-hand addicts.

All 3 of which are invaluable. Thanks.

Peace,
Shane
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:31 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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As convincing as that argument about heroin sounds (it isn't heroin that addicts people, its people that use heroin that addicts people), it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny in my opinion. Its the same arguement the NRA uses to say that guns are "OK."

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Fa.

Guns allow people to be killed much faster and in larger numbers.

Heroin is similar.
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:23 pm
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lies217



Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 4
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word.
while there are exceptions to most rules...
heroin is an addictive substance.
so with that said...
whether you use it once a week for 30 years...or daily for 6 months..
the user will, most likely, have to come to terms with his/her using.
unlike coke, speed etc...heroin can make an addict out of a non addictive person.
i too have known people to use for long lengths and put it down no problem, or fuck around with it for minute and leave it alone...
i have also known more people who have done that and years later had everything pulled out from under them when the drug revealed just how powerful it can be.

whatever the case maybe...
messiah...good luck to your friend.
peace.
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:56 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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djdee2005 wrote:
As convincing as that argument about heroin sounds (it isn't heroin that addicts people, its people that use heroin that addicts people), it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny in my opinion. Its the same arguement the NRA uses to say that guns are "OK."

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Fa.

Guns allow people to be killed much faster and in larger numbers.

Heroin is similar.


Ahhhh. I get it.

So you only want the police to have guns is what you're saying.

Or politicians?

There'll come a day when the guns are needed for a legitimate purpose - protecting ourselves from potential oppressors. Think about it...unless you think that government will ALWAYS treat us properly, guns are necessary.

Right now I give it another 30 years until it's time to pack up and move out or fight. I don't really like guns anymore, so I'll probably be moving. ;-)

Heroin IS similar in at least one respect - I don't beleive the government should have the right to limit our possession of either (remember, I have watched someone go unconcious never to return from heroin, and my mother was a victim as well even though I was fortunate enough to not be there - so I'm not speaking on something as if I've never seen the affects - guns and heroin can both be used to do horrible things).

The problem is people shoot people. You can solve that two ways:

#1. Get rid of the guns.
#2. Get rid of the desire to shoot people.

1 seems like kind of a band-aid to me.

Peace,
Shane
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 4:19 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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lies217 wrote:
word.
while there are exceptions to most rules...
heroin is an addictive substance.



Word.

Peace,
Shane
Post Mon Nov 25, 2002 4:22 pm
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djmed



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 68
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
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drugs are wack.... u dont have to do them.....find something else to do instead.....f*ck curiosity.....go read or play videogames or do something else... try to help out your local community or relgious organization or whatever......think.

u could also try praying to God and asking him to help out your friends.....and yourself....and to ask for forgiveness in any sins u did in the past...
Post Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:30 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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MessiahCarey wrote:

Ahhhh. I get it.

So you only want the police to have guns is what you're saying.

Or politicians?

There'll come a day when the guns are needed for a legitimate purpose - protecting ourselves from potential oppressors. Think about it...unless you think that government will ALWAYS treat us properly, guns are necessary.

Right now I give it another 30 years until it's time to pack up and move out or fight. I don't really like guns anymore, so I'll probably be moving. ;-)

Heroin IS similar in at least one respect - I don't beleive the government should have the right to limit our possession of either (remember, I have watched someone go unconcious never to return from heroin, and my mother was a victim as well even though I was fortunate enough to not be there - so I'm not speaking on something as if I've never seen the affects - guns and heroin can both be used to do horrible things).

The problem is people shoot people. You can solve that two ways:

#1. Get rid of the guns.
#2. Get rid of the desire to shoot people.

1 seems like kind of a band-aid to me.

Peace,
Shane


First off, we ARE the military. The military is made up of American people. So its not going to try to "oppress" us.

Second of all, if you go by that, where do you draw the line? Automatic weapons? Agent Orange? Nuclear weapons? At what point does it become a weapon that someone will need if they are "oppressed."
Post Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:54 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
Re: ....  Reply with quote  

djmed wrote:
u could also try praying to God and asking him to help out your friends.....and yourself....and to ask for forgiveness in any sins u did in the past...


When all else fails, beg. Right?

Sorry - but if there's anyone that's going to get my friend off heroin it will be himself. He will make that decision. Me screaming at some crazy white bearded guy isn't going to make anything better until my friend doesn't want to be addicted anymore.

So basically...I thank you for the advice, but I'd rather burn than beg...

Peace,
Shane
Post Tue Nov 26, 2002 7:54 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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djdee2005 wrote:
First off, we ARE the military. The military is made up of American people. So its not going to try to "oppress" us.


You're joking, right?

I don't even know where to start explaining how many different ways and angles I can possibly disagree with you on this. A police state will obviously protect the police and their families (in this case the military) VERY well. And if there's any doubt in your mind if people will fuck everyone else in the country over to ensure their own safety (and that of their family), I point you only to corporate America (a place I'm all too familiar with. Yuck.)

djdee2005 wrote:
Second of all, if you go by that, where do you draw the line? Automatic weapons? Agent Orange? Nuclear weapons? At what point does it become a weapon that someone will need if they are "oppressed."


I can't disagree that, when painted with as broad a brush as you just did, it becomes problematic. The difference here is in the reality over the theory:

Automatic weapons - Ammunition is quite costly for these, and the price for the weapons typically exceeds that of the average homeowner. We should make sure it stays that way without taking away their freedom to have them.

Agent Orange - Just plain inaccessible for the general public. Imitations can be made in a lab, but that sort of thing is never purchased legally anyway so legislation regarding it (much like guns) is irrelevant.

Nuclear Weapons - Do I have to start?

- Shane
Post Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:11 am
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