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As twisted as it may seem, the DRAFT may be what we need.
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Pvt_Moose



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 417
Location: L.A. (redondo)
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it was funny when i first read the title i thought sage was talking about the nfl draft... its this saturday yall....
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:39 am
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emynd



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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dones wrote:
it was funny when i first read the title i thought sage was talking about the nfl draft... its this saturday yall....


BAHA!
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:00 am
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pav



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 805
Location: from the heart of queens
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Though I see your point sage, i think you're way off on this one..

In a twisted way, it's like saying that we NEEDED 9/11 to start the steam roll of Bush's war so that we could criticize his policy and oust him out of office..

not the best analogy. but it just seems very backward to me..

messiah is on point.
and as astronot said "The rich will find ways to evade the draft and the poor will just get angrier and angrier.".. it's what's happened before and didn't solve anything.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:08 am
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Dan Shay



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 11244
Location: MN
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I agree with your class assessment of the draft sage.

And the only way it would work is if there was even recruitment. But, of course th cats that could afford to would go off to Canada and Sweden to dodge it.

I wouldn't allow college draftees to be officers, but that's just me. bunch 'a nancys.

I think it would be nifty if we had a non-professional police. Like everybody was conscripted to do a one year stint as a police officer when they turned 18. Get rid of the high school bullies/nerds that want to take it out on the rest of us, and have a bunch of kids coming to the spot, that are "just doing their job" as it were. For the more chaotic situations, they can always call in the professional "brute squad".

It is easy though, being above draft age, to say we need to reinstate the draft.

In the past, when things get ugly politically in this country, they've often used the military draft to mass indoctrinate the populace. 1890s, when the anarchist/socialist movement started picking up steam here, they got us involved in the spanish/american war. Again, when he socialist/communist/anarchist/labor movement started getting going here in the 30s, then came WW2.

Many times in our history when people find problems within the country, the draft is instated to go after the problems outside the country. Diversion as it were. But Im not saying that's the only reason for a draft. It just usually is the reason here.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:19 pm
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mortalthoughts
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Joined: 12 Dec 2002
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sage would you have the same opionon if you were age 18-25?
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:05 pm
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MAGIstraight



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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most rich kids go to college...

college students dont get drafted...

and a draft doesn't mean that the chances for a rich kid and a poor kid going to war are equal...

what... you think the whole draft process is straight? I'm sure that shit was corrupt back in our previous drafts... and I'm sure it'd still be...

if the rich man can drop some dollars to keep his kid out of war he will...
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:31 pm
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sequence



Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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Shane is right, about a lot of things.

First, if the draft does get reinstated it will almost impossible to opt out. Check out the Universal Service bills that are on the floor of the house and senate at present. Conscientious Objector status won't even get you opted out anymore, instead you'll be a medic or a pencil pusher, but still working for a machine that is designed to travel the world killing people.

Second, if the justification for re-instating the draft is to heighten political awareness by making people realize that if they support military action they are saying that either they, or someone they know and probably love, will have to be willing to die for that war, you're riding a dangerous line. See, when you're a soldier, you're not saying, I am willing to risk my life, you're saying, I'm willing to die. If your CO says you must stand in front of that machine gun, you must do it, or be labelled insubordinate. Once people realize this a variety of unpleasant things could happen. If you want heightened political awareness without potential wide scale rioting and political unrest that could lead to martial law, reinstituting the draft may not be the way to go.

Third, are you really sure you want these assholes, or any other asshole who are or would/could be running the government in charge of that much manpower. Fuck a two front war, let's go for three, why not four? Iran wouldn't look so scary/daunting anymore with a million 18-25 year olds with machine guns in their hands to thrust at the nation!

Fourth, if the draft was reinstituted today, or even in the next year or so, I'm still young enough that they could take me. As they instituted all sorts of changes post-Vietnam there would be no way out anymore. Canada, Mexico and all our European pals have signed on treaties to extradite any 'dodgers' living in their nations. There will be no more student deferrals. I don't want to go to jail or into the army. So what then?

I think a more viable way to raise social consciousness may be to institute a universal 6 months service for all citizens that involves doing socially useful work, i.e., Americorps, Teach for America, or something else of that nature. That would certainly raise the sense of Republicanism in our country and it would not do it through making people involuntary place their lives on the chopping block. I would be down for that, and I think, in a sense, it would raise the level at which people understand themselves as American citizens and what that may mean. Hopefully that would then come to apply to the way in which they came to thinkabout war. If they think of themselves as part of the community in one sense it is bound to apply to others.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:37 pm
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sequence



Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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magistraight wrote:
most rich kids go to college...

college students dont get drafted...

and a draft doesn't mean that the chances for a rich kid and a poor kid going to war are equal...

what... you think the whole draft process is straight? I'm sure that shit was corrupt back in our previous drafts... and I'm sure it'd still be...

if the rich man can drop some dollars to keep his kid out of war he will...


They will now. Check the bills in the house and the senate.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:38 pm
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duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
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Does anyone know the cutoff age for the draft?
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:47 pm
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sequence



Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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dallasbboy wrote:
Does anyone know the cutoff age for the draft?


Your availability ends the day you turn 26. However. I think if they get you in any day before that they can still make you serve two years. So theoretically you could serve right up until before your 28th birthday. I may be wrong about that though. It is possible that the day you turn 26 they have to discharge you, but I highly doubt that is the case.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:52 pm
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Dan Shay



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Sweden accepts draft dodgers.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:51 pm
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Sage Francis
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I did not know that I was beyond the legal drafting age when i wrote that.

and it would not make a difference

in fact, i am insulted by your insinuation that i am PRO-anything just because i am safe from the repercussions.

THE DRAFT IS WHAT THIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO KICK START ACTUAL DISSENT.

Sure, SOME rich kids will be able to successfully dodge the draft, but that will only male everyone else more aware of how unfair the system is:

send boys and girls...watch how quickly the political landscape of our country begins to crumble from within.

Am I advocating that more people actually go over seas to kill or get killed? Of course not. I am advocating the rejection of this government; a government that does not look out for the best interests of joe public.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:21 pm
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mortalthoughts
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Joined: 12 Dec 2002
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Sage Francis wrote:
I did not know that I was beyond the legal drafting age when i wrote that.

and it would not make a difference





and im supposed to know how old you are how??? last think i remember reading you said you were born in 1967 that would make you older then 25

i could be wrong about the year thing though...wouldnt be the first time ive been wrong....




Quote:

in fact, i am insulted by your insinuation that i am PRO-anything just because i am safe from the repercussions.



my bad my bad, alot of people use that as a cop out though for alot of things....i guess i shouldnt assumed the one and only mr francis would of though...
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:34 pm
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2b
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Joined: 29 Aug 2003
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I am almost positive that just about any insurgence nowadays would be quelled by the government or local authorities faster than that of Shays' Rebellion on MA, that is unless entire states decide to separate themselves from the centralized government, and we all know how that turned out last time. Not only that, but what you are proposing would be considered treason under wartime by our government and I believe that is an offense that is still punishable by death in this country. Not to say I'm against what's being proposed, destruction of a corrupt system, I'm simply stating that an attempt to bring down the government that is not in our best interest will most likely be in vain. The main problem behind this, in my opinion, is that the comfort level is too high amongst the vast majority of the population to really instill any mass rejection of the system. It is when the majority of people are not content with how they are being treated, and their or their families well-being is at stake that something of this magnitude can be successfull. This is not the case in this country. It's also fair to mention in this that I'm almost positive that the government would not let go of IT's people without a fight, and that being said I'm sure the weapons used by the gov't are vastly superior to any found by the common Joe Citizen, and can counterbalance any strong force opposed to the gov't's ruling. Even if you weren't talking about a violent revolution (though what you were saying seems to imply it, only by cause and effect), the gov't would put the first couple thousand of dissenters in jail to make a point and have the rest line up neatly for the slaughter. They've inprisoned people for less, I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem doing this for the sake of keeping a corrupt gov't. This is just a thought off the top of my head.

I'd like to say I'm opposed to a draft, and war, and gov't for that matter. I will not die for this government and that is certain, I might die because of it though. I would fight for freedom though, just not the type of freedom some imply to give out to other countries.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:48 pm
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sequence



Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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Sage Francis wrote:


THE DRAFT IS WHAT THIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO KICK START ACTUAL DISSENT.

Sure, SOME rich kids will be able to successfully dodge the draft, but that will only male everyone else more aware of how unfair the system is:

send boys and girls...watch how quickly the political landscape of our country begins to crumble from within.

Am I advocating that more people actually go over seas to kill or get killed? Of course not. I am advocating the rejection of this government; a government that does not look out for the best interests of joe public.


In part, I agree with you. My inner revolutionary feels that you are right, the problem is that I'm unsure what real political dissidence will yield these days. No matter how much I want to rip the structures of power out at their roots, I'm scared shitless of the thought of the martial law that would inevitably be implemented if the type of shit comes down, that will come down, if the draft is reinstated. Accordingly, I don't know if I can agree. Though you don't want people to get shipped off to kill and be killed, if the draft is reinstated, that is exactly what will happen to a fuckload of people before the shit really comes down. It will take some bodybags before the ire of 'the people' is raised. There are sometimes in which the old adage, "we need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette" might be right, here I don't know if I can agree.

If you want immediate madness, I'd imagine this is the quickest route to it. I spend certain days of the week agreeing you with completely. I spend other days merely wanting a return to the mediocre days of the Clinton era. Maybe I'm overestimating the political impact of the move to the draft...or the bodies of the middle and upper class white kids who didn't really give a shit being rolled home, or maybe not.
Post Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:02 pm
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