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CBS is fucking up bigtime<insert big fat roll eyes here)
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Craig a.d.



Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 2141
Location: America's High-Five
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A aviator wrote:

but craig, a better start? I live with 2 teachers that teach at a NA middle school. This tribe is giving $2,000 a month to each member of the tribe from the $$$$$$$$$buco bucks its making from it's casinos. There are no limits on what they can spend it on. Not that I think there should be. But there is no investment counseling, you don't even have to be 18 to get the check. The $ just teaches them that buying stuff is what will make them happy, and why would they need skills for a job? So these teachers are dealing with kids in middle school who don't care for or value their education because they have $ and that's what matters to them.


A aviator-

You raise a good point of careless spending that could be solved with investment education. This brings me to the point I eluded to earlier about this detrimental cycle that most NA's seem to be in. Uneducated people make uneducated decisions. I should have put an emphasis on education in my earlier post. Money can't buy wisdom. So do you disagree with NA's being able to build casinos to make money for the tribe? I still support NA's building casinos. I guess it is left up to the tribe and the individual members to actually decide what is done with that money. Two sisters I know that are NA spend there money wisely, one goes to a public university (for free) and the other goes to a private university (uses the left over money from her sisters govt. check and then out of her pocket, along with an athletic scholarship). Their tribe doesn't have a casino, and most of the members are depressed or alcoholics or both. The sisters dad contracted Hep C(or B i dont remember) through a doctors needle about 10 years ago, he's been in and out of the ER ever since. Health insurance carriers refuse to carry him or his family. (which is a whole other issue) This family needs a casino to just pay the bills. So that's where my point of view is coming from. I can see how many people would abuse the money and spend it friviously. That is where education needs to be a factor though.
ad
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:47 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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the mean wrote:
Sure, "live and let live." Easy to say if it is not the negative stereotypes associated with your race/culture being mocked.



I dunno - Martin Lawrences imitation of white people is fucking hilarious, in my opinion.

And I love white characterizations, they always make me laugh when I find out one of them is the least bit true or when I find out how mistaken other people really are about what's linked to race and what is not.

So, from the exception taken to this event I've learned that Native Americans DO NOT like teepees and that they never REALLY wore face-paint right? I mean, those are obviously just stereotypes and have never held any foundation of truth. See, I know little about "Indians" except that we killed a bunch and took our land back. Now I see some stuff about teepees, but I guess it's not true because people seem to take exception to...y'know...Native Americans being associated with teepees...and ummmm "war" paint...(and here I was thinking that Natives had OTHER ceremonies for which they wore paint that wasn't war-related. Goofy me. Must OBVIOUSLY be just a war thing).

Ugh. Stereotypes are a real hard thing to get my head around. They develop from small cultural truths and then burgeon into something that only seeks to confuse those truths from being fully understood by someone uninvolved in the culture. Very odd.

- Shane
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:01 am
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Rhino



Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 4798
Location: Square of Despair
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Quote:

See, I know little about "Indians" except that we killed a bunch and took our land back.


Im not following what you mean by "took OUR land back"?
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:35 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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The_Rhino wrote:

Quote:

See, I know little about "Indians" except that we killed a bunch and took our land back.


Im not following what you mean by "took OUR land back"?


I'm sorry, I mean "took THEIR land"...

...you see sometimes I'm unintelligible when my toungue is so firmly planted in my cheek.
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:36 am
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6494
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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[quote="MessiahCarey]I dunno - Martin Lawrences imitation of white people is fucking hilarious, in my opinion.

And I love white characterizations, they always make me laugh when I find out one of them is the least bit true or when I find out how mistaken other people really are about what's linked to race and what is not.

So, from the exception taken to this event I've learned that Native Americans DO NOT like teepees and that they never REALLY wore face-paint right? I mean, those are obviously just stereotypes and have never held any foundation of truth. See, I know little about "Indians" except that we killed a bunch and took our land back. Now I see some stuff about teepees, but I guess it's not true because people seem to take exception to...y'know...Native Americans being associated with teepees...and ummmm "war" paint...(and here I was thinking that Natives had OTHER ceremonies for which they wore paint that wasn't war-related. Goofy me. Must OBVIOUSLY be just a war thing).

Ugh. Stereotypes are a real hard thing to get my head around. They develop from small cultural truths and then burgeon into something that only seeks to confuse those truths from being fully understood by someone uninvolved in the culture. Very odd.

- Shane[/quote]
I see a big difference between mocking the dominant culture and mocking a group that has been historical discriminated against.

And i never said that Native Americans did not wear war paint, etc. But the history of Native Americans in US popular culture focuses only on their warlike qualities. From John Wayne movies to the present (although, admittedly, it has gotten better.) If Dre comes out with a valid explanation about a certain ceremony that moved him and explains that the paint was part of that ceremony i may buy it. But i'm guessing that he never really thought about it and i think that is insulting.
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:53 am
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Doctrine



Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 4626
Location: ATL, Livin' Swell
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the mean wrote:
I see a big difference between mocking the dominant culture and mocking a group that has been historical discriminated against.


Thank you thank you thank you...I was just about to say that...In different words of course...

I was discussing this EXACT topic with my father about a month ago...I said what gives a people of color a right to tease white stereotypes (often in comedy) and it's offensive (generally) for a white man to do the same to those people? He dropped the knowledge on me like this...

Tables turn in mentality when certain content is used between a generally opressed people and the opressor...It means SO much more for the opressor (mabye was once the opressor) to tease or mock the people it once opressed...It is in the subconscious as "kicking while down" or "throwing salt in the wound"...But the opressed teasing the (once or current) opressor can be seen as a form of "coping" and is somewhat understood by the opressor...

That's the mentality...It's not really right or wrong, but that's how it is...

This can be applied to this situation with the Natives and their culture being mocked...ESPECIALLY being that they are constantly having their people being represented as the "cowboy and indian"-esque light...

So some people might be thinking "oh well if they teased US like that I wouldn't care..." But YOUR being teased doesn't regurgitate history along with it...So it changes things...
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:44 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Stereotypes are the result of certain true aspects, that's what I was saying. I enjoy seeing cultures poked fun at so long as it doesn't promote inferiority - personally. It doesn't matter to me WHAT culture it is, as I don't think they're inferior in the first place.

To laugh at and to feel that something is inferior are NOT one in the same. I can laugh at the portrayal of people in funny hats and feathers because they look silly in our current day-to-day life. It doesn't mean that I think the ancestors of these people are silly or to be laughed at, nor does it mean anything beyond being a strange situation. The assertion that I'm not intelligent enough to discern what is on my screen as NOT being representative of a culture offends me greatly.

"I see a big difference between mocking the dominant culture and mocking a group that has been historical discriminated against."

Tell me what group has not been historically discriminated against?

"And the negroes name, it is used it is plain.
For the politician's gain, and the poor white remains,
he's only a pawn in their game."

People are not ONLY discriminated upon based on race, class is also a defining factor - and cultural history among poor folk is rich (thus giving lots of ammo for those that care to laugh at its quirks). Everytime I see a blues great playing - he's not singing about being black to me, he's singing about being poor...many of them will tell you this themselves. There are plenty of examples where financial destitution is mocked, drug addiction is mocked (Wayans movies are great for this, but I know plenty of white girls that will blow you for smack and probably don't think "I'll suck yo dick" is very funny), and all sorts of other things that affect "white" people (white is not a race, human is...side note) are made fun of on the daily. And I laugh at them, even though they look like me (for the most part, I'm usually much more homely)

I just don't see this as a HUGE injustice. Maybe it's something CBS regrets, but it isn't fair to paint this like Outkast and/or CBS deserves the anti-Native tag, at all.

Seriously - for every Native offended there's 5 dying white and black kids in the city that haven't eaten for a while. Offending people is going to happen - it's part of the result of free speech (the good part: Natives can put material regarding this issue in "their" casinos if "they" like). I don't think there's much ground to stand on here, and in my view (albeit irrelevant because I wasn't born on this continent) the Native American community would be better off spending this kind of energy petitioning the Bush Administration to recognize the many tribes that have been trying to get recognized for DECADES now to receive their benefits - or do something better with their time than lash out at artists that are revitilizing interest in their culture by even presenting it to a bunch of people who forgot about them while they were on their way to get their new SUV's.

I just don't see mockery, either. I don't see anywhere in this presentation where Natives are portrayed as inferior due to what they're wearing or the fact that they are dancing around teepees. I've seen the cross and the bible defamed many a time in the interest of comedy - and even though those things are, sadly, a representation of my European roots - I do not take offense and will laugh at them all the same.

I'm giving it about 2 posts before I'm told anything I feel is allowed to be felt because I have white priveledge - at which point I will be abstaining from this conversation...so lets avoid that, because it's silly. My lifestyle can be stringent upon that priveledge, but my opinions are not. I see the ridiculous nature of white people and I don't deny its existence, but I'm less sure of the cause than some people seem to be (white people have nothing but killing people and taking over shit in their blood, after all...ha).

Peace,
Shane
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:16 pm
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Doctrine



Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 4626
Location: ATL, Livin' Swell
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Shane wrote:
artists that are revitilizing interest in their culture by even presenting it to a bunch of people who forgot about them while they were on their way to get their new SUV's.


Are you SERIOUS...You think this was their goal...HARDLY Shane...Hardly...

I have alot to say...But I'm completly burnt out at the weight of this post...
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:45 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Ha.

I'm playing devil's advocate there.

I don't know what they're doing or trying to do, I'm not them. I'll use the microcosm of sampling. Many rock musicians argue that their culture is being co-opted by hiphop, my argument to that is that hip hop uses sampling to revitalize other artforms.

That's what I was getting at. The average American doesn't even THINK about the Native plight. Period. This, and the subsequent discussion that became of it, may have slightly changed that...is that to the credit or the detriment of those who started the ball rolling?

We wouldn't be talking about the native plight right now had this not happened is I guess what I'm trying to say (I chose shock value with my wording, I'll admit). Even those sitting in their houses that didn't call CBS may have made a statement that got someone near them thinking about it. Natives have many more, MUCH better, things to worry about. Like getting recognized in certain states by our government, for example.

I dunno. All that stuff aside, I really just don't see any "mockery" here. If they came out and gave me some sort of impression that those fantastic costumes were INFERIOR (if nothing else, one's left to believe Natives had a pension for the ornamental) then maybe I'd be feeling differently. I really just did not leave with that feeling. I said "Oh, Native garb. Neat." and subsequently let my thoughts roam off into history and whatnot regarding Natives. I just didn't see it. Point it out to me, please. I reserve the right to be wrong. :-P

As far as the whole oppressor vs. oppressed knolly your pops blessed ya with, I would definitely agree that those are definitely the aspects of why SOME people think it's alright. I, however, view it all the same across the board because I don't believe in any true inferiority based on race. I can laugh at all of us, for all of the idiosyncratic things that make cultures different, simply BECAUSE I don't view any race superior. I hope that makes sense how I explained it...I can either choose to take exception to the white jokes or I can allow all jokes based on the idiosyncracies of all cultures to be funny with a certain restriction. I've chosen the latter.
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:25 pm
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Kid_x



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 64
Location: New Mexico
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Dude if this event really made you think about Native American history then you would have known that not all native tribes dressed in those garments. Also you act as if the casino is god for us. Like "ohhh we got money so we shouldnt complain" You act as if everyone drives around in a Range Rover or shit like that. While in reality theres alot of people suffering from drug abuse, suicides and murders. So for your 5 white or black kids dyin theres a native hangin themselves, shooting someone or dying from liver failure. But man i wished i lived in your version of this world. Ohhh but wait the grammy show sparked your interest in native history so you probably came across that. So i think i'll drop some knowledge since i am a native and clear up some confusion about why people were upset.

First off i explained a little bit about this in my first post that the teepee is not only where many tribes people but also a place where many ceremonies take place in regards to healing and protection for the certain patient.

Second the whole feathers thing. In our culture feathers are very sacred symbol of freedom and power a reflection of birds. This is also a very vital instrument that accampanies the medicine man in the ceremony.

so hopefully that explains a little bit, So its not a matter of being inferior but a matter of understanding in what the "Props" represent to us
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:27 pm
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Doctrine



Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 4626
Location: ATL, Livin' Swell
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The stuff used was merely for entertainment and held no educational value...Nor accurate depictions of Natives anyway...Your side would hold water Shane if the latter wasn't true...
Post Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:33 pm
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Krang
THE ORC BREATH


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Location: NSW, australia
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yeah, and also, wu-tang should stop only portraying the violence of the shaolin temple without showing the true farm life of the shaolin monks. The shaolin martial arts was only developed as self defense for the farmers.
This racism against chinese by wu-tang has gone on long enough.





ok im just fuckin around, im neutral on this one.
Post Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:57 am
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antipatriot



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 17
Location: orygun
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What was the intention with the performance?

Therein lies the answer as to whether this was a respectable show.

Who's governing who here???
Post Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:48 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Kid_x wrote:
Dude if this event really made you think about Native American history then you would have known that not all native tribes dressed in those garments. Also you act as if the casino is god for us. Like "ohhh we got money so we shouldnt complain"



That's not how I 'act', and if you re-read you'll notice NO CRITICISMS whatsoever in regards to the Casinos. If you got that impression, it is something that you're garnering inside yourself and projecting onto me because other people may have been dumb enough to imply those things. Please, re-read what I wrote and point out where I gave that impression. I did make a comment that information could be posted in Casinos - but that's because the Casinos have many visitors and therefore would be the logical place for information to be disseminated. I don't go to Casinos regardless of what race they're operated by - but if I did, I certainly wouldn't be offended with informational material being handed to me with my ID check.

Anyway...aside from that misunderstanding.

I'm partially familiar with Native culture, I have a good friend who is a Nipmuc (as of yet unrecognized) and he has explained many aspects of his Shamanistic faith, etc. Straight up slapped me for picking up a feather than dropping it in the woods...made me a dreamcatcher for solstice, alla dat. I'm also aware that not ALL native tribes dressed in those garments - however, some DID at certain times and that cannot be denied. Therefore, it's obviously not innaccurate. The acccuracy is not in question - and never has been. Some Natives, at some times, wore those things. I didn't see an implication that they were stupid for it, nor did I see an implication that they ALL wore such things. I'm a thinker - if I see Natives, I think of the injustices that befell them simply because it's what comes to mind...it wasn't evoked out of this performance, and I didn't mean to imply that if I did.

All I'm saying is that in order for you to be offended by this, you must be making the elitist assumption that it LED TO A BELIEF OF INFERIORITY (something the performance, in my opinion, did NOT do) - otherwise you risk the chance of ANY sort of recognition of any culture be put through a fine-tooth comb before it's presented to the public in order to weed out what MIGHT be innacuracies overall, but ARE quirks of a culture? The answer is to present more good material in response, not take jabs at those who utilize other aspects.

Again - where is the mockery? Where was I left to believe from this performance that Natives are less important, silly, or whatever you seem to think I'm supposed to think after seeing this?

- Shane
Post Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:04 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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The feathers were not defamed, and freedom is a great concept to be spreading.

Healing and freedom? Using symbols of healing and freedom on TV?!?!?!

How dare they...
Post Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:08 am
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