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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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dallas im sorry, I didn't post everything I meant to.


Quote:

Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent).


83 percent of americans believe it. Most americans are protestants.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:17 pm
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duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 3208
Location: San Diego,CA
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August Spies wrote:
dallas im sorry, I didn't post everything I meant to.


Quote:

Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent).


83 percent of americans believe it. Most americans are protestants.


Not this American.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:21 pm
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badmonkey



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 48
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Quote:

dallasbboy
This is a Catholic belief not a Christian one. (There is a difference)

Catholics are in fact commanded to not read the Bible. Also they don't realize the Bible that the Bible they use contains 15 extra books called the "Apocrypha" which are not recognized to be valid scripture.

Catholics believe she was a virgin even after she gave birth to Jesus and never had children after Jesus. This is rooted in blind adhereance to Vatican doctrine.


I am a recovering Catholic and that just simply isn't true. I went to a Catholic school from kindergarten to 12th grade and we had to read the Bible every day and go to mass twice a week.

Ware did you get your info from because your plane wrong.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:51 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
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I was also raised catholic, and would second the fact you are once again plain wrong.

"which are not recognized to be valid scripture."

what exactly does this mean? not recognized by non-catholics?
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:55 pm
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duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
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Location: San Diego,CA
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badmonkey wrote:

Quote:

dallasbboy
This is a Catholic belief not a Christian one. (There is a difference)

Catholics are in fact commanded to not read the Bible. Also they don't realize the Bible that the Bible they use contains 15 extra books called the "Apocrypha" which are not recognized to be valid scripture.

Catholics believe she was a virgin even after she gave birth to Jesus and never had children after Jesus. This is rooted in blind adhereance to Vatican doctrine.


I am a recovering Catholic and that just simply isn't true. I went to a Catholic school from kindergarten to 12th grade and we had to read the Bible every day and go to mass twice a week.

Ware did you get your info from because your plane wrong.


I'm an ex-catholic myself. I went to Catholic school and was even an alter boy.

Catholic priests by in large do not encourage their congregation to read their Bible two reasons.

1. They won't find the mention of priests, nuns, nor celibacy in it.

2. The readers will discover there is a lot of Catholic practices and traditions such as confession and penance that completely undermine what Jesus stood for.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:59 pm
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duke_city



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August Spies wrote:
I was also raised catholic, and would second the fact you are once again plain wrong.

"which are not recognized to be valid scripture."

what exactly does this mean? not recognized by non-catholics?


Heres the skinny on the Apocrphyra.


Quote:


What is the Apocrypha?
The term "apocrypha" was coined by the fifth-century biblical scholar St. Jerome and refers to the biblical books included as part of the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament), but not included in the Hebrew Bible.

Several works ranging from the fourth century B.C.E. to New Testament times are considered apocryphal--including Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, various additions to the Book of Esther (10:4-10), the Book of Daniel (3:24-90;13;14), and the Prayer of Manasseh.

The apocrypha have been variously included and omitted from bibles over the course of the centuries. Protestant churches generally exclude the apocrypha (though the King James version of 1611 included them). The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches include all of the apocrypha (except for the books of Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh), but refer to them as "deuterocanonical" books. In this context, the term "apocrypha" generally refers to writings entirely outside of the biblical canon and not considered inspired (such as the Gospel of Thomas). These same books are referred to by Protestants as the "pseudoepigrapha."



Brian


Last edited by duke_city on Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:02 pm
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Doctrine



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"The names do not appear. JY, even Sage called you out on your actions in that thread. How you imagine you are on a high horse is beyond me."

Sage must be greater than all on this board making his remarks hold greater value to you...Is he YOUR God...But seriously...

We can make and manipulate statistics all day and they will get us nowhere...Even if the stats are true...Getting a majority vote on whether something people THINK is fact or not does not make the results so...If you have brown hair and a majority vote of your classroom says it's blonde does that make it blonde...No...

So what we are looking for is FACT...For those that hold FAITH in the bible and not just agreement with "most" of it, would know that the scripture says that Mary WAS a virgin and that she only had intercourse AFTER she birthed Jesus...That is what the scripture says is fact...Not believing this means you question the validity of God's scripture and means you are lacking in faith...

If you claim NOT to be a Christian or Disciple of Jesus, how can I judge you? You live by totally different morals and laws...I can only judge those who claim to be Christian...

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 - "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."

That was Paul talking...

What I'm trying to say is...It was a MIRACLE, divine intervention...Do I dare to think my mind can be COMPLETLEY in step with the creator of the universe? No...But I know the scripture is true...

Good question though...

By the way...Read some history on the Catholic church...The truth is, it is hardly christian...They have made so many false doctrines and warped the word so much it's not even funny...They were even considered evil at one point...Getting information is like doing a current event from a tabloid...
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:03 pm
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duke_city



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Doctrine wrote:
So what we are looking for is FACT...For those that hold FAITH in the bible and not just agreement with "most" of it, would know that the scripture says that Mary WAS a virgin and that she only had intercourse AFTER she birthed Jesus...That is what the scripture says is fact...Not believing this means you question the validity of God's scripture and means you are lacking in faith...

If you claim NOT to be a Christian or Disciple of Jesus, how can I judge you? You live by totally different morals and laws...I can only judge those who claim to be Christian...

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 - "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."

That was Paul talking...

What I'm trying to say is...It was a MIRACLE, divine intervention...Do I dare to think my mind can be COMPLETLEY in step with the creator of the universe? No...But I know the scripture is true...

Good question though...

By the way...Read some history on the Catholic church...The truth is, it is hardly christian...They have made so many false doctrines and warped the word so much it's not even funny...They were even considered evil at one point...Getting information is like doing a current event from a tabloid...


Word to Doctrine on this, his beliefs resonate strongly with mine.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:07 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Sage is not my god by anymeans. I was merely pointing out that JY's tactics in the thread were so questionable that a moderator (sage) who was not even involved in the discussion told him to stop.

Getting a majority vote on whether something people THINK is fact or not does not make the results so

i'm not really sure what you are getting at here. I was merely pointing out that the virgin birth is not a "catholic" belief, most christians believe it. I wasn't arguing this makes it fact.

That is what the scripture says is fact...Not believing this means you question the validity of God's scripture and means you are lacking in faith...

but some of the scripture doesnt' say this, you don't think it is at least interesting that most biblical scholasr doubt it? People who study the scriptures don't seem to agree with you...

...Read some history on the Catholic church...The truth is, it is hardly christian..

you do realize that the Catholic church was ALL christianity was for most of its existance? It seems a little silly to say they aren't christian, but that is just me.

If you claim NOT to be a Christian or Disciple of Jesus, how can I judge you?

um I dunno, I wasn't asking for you to judge me.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:09 pm
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duke_city



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August Spies wrote:
i'm not really sure what you are getting at here. I was merely pointing out that the virin birth is not a "catholic" belief, most christians believe it.



You need to get more specific when discussing subjects such as these. A Christian is one who follows Christ not the Pope. Thats why they are called "Roman Catholics", the first giving alligance to Caesar the second the universal quality of their vision. Neither word identifys Jesus Christ as their leader which is immediatley evident in the word "Christian".

August Spies wrote:

but some of the scripture doesnt' say this, you don't think it is at least interesting that most biblical scholasr doubt it? People who study the scriptures don't seem to agree with you...



Out with it then! I provided scripture which backed up that Mary was a virgin then went on to have children with Joseph after Jesus was born.

Biblical Scholars? Provide some sources please.

August Spies wrote:

you do realize that the Catholic church was ALL christianity was for most of its existance? It seems a little silly to say they aren't christian, but that is just me.



One man to read up on August. - > Martin Luther specifically his "95 Theses"

http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

He debunked Catholicism in the early 1500's!

Catholicism and Christianty have been mututally exclusive for much longer than that even.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:21 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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lets not get into a silly thing of catholicism. It really has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I will point out that the title of something doesn't necessarily prove anything. "Bolshievik" doesn't have the word Lenin or Stalin in it, but still refers to people who follow their ideologies.


Quote:

Biblical Scholars? Provide some sources please.


so you didn't even read my OP before responding?

:(


Last edited by August Spies on Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:24 pm
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duke_city



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August Spies wrote:
lets not get into a silly thing of catholicism. It really has nothing to do with what we are tlaking about.


Quote:

Biblical Scholars? Provide some sources please.


so you didn't even read my OP before responding?


I read all of it. And the "silly thing" of Catholicism is fundamental to the understanding of religious beliefs.

Again I question why you mentioned "Christian Scholars" debating a "Catholic dogma".

Its not plausible in the least.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:28 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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There was a reason I asked Luke and Doctrine to respond, they actual make coherent posts.

Let me summarize for you:
Most protestants believe in the virgin birth.
Doctrine, a protestant, says it is biblical fact.

so we are NOT debating "catholic dogma" but "christian dogma"
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:32 pm
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duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
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August Spies wrote:
lets not get into a silly thing of catholicism. It really has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I will point out that the title of something doesn't necessarily prove anything. "Bolshievik" doesn't have the word Lenin or Stalin in it, but still refers to people who follow their ideologies.



Agreed.
In this case however the title of their faith reinforces what Martin Luther proved approx. 500 years ago. The Catholic church is so far away from what Jesus Christ stood for it shoulnd't even be considered related anymore.

Brian
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:33 pm
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Doctrine



Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 4626
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I was only joking about the "Sage is you god" thing...You cant read voice influx on the net...Sorry...

About the voting thing...I read the CNN article and I was trying to say that all the stats mean nothing on people's OPINION...It's just that people's OPINION...Plus stats can be manipulated...

The virgin birth is for a christian really shouldn't be debatable...There are so many denominations for this and that doctrine...But people fail to see the sound doctrine that is in the ONE bible...Read your bible, don't read your preachers notes, or what this or that denomination believes on a website...

I know some biblical scholars...The only reason they carry the moniker "scholar" is a piece of paper...It doesn't give any more credibility...The fact that the virgin birth isn't mentioned in all four gospel accounts doesn't make it something to be questioned...It's all just foolish speculation...There are different accounts of Judas killing himself...One is very concise...The other talks about how he killed himself and the guts spilling out...

Matthew 27:5 - "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."

Acts 1:18 - "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out."

So are we to believe that Judas' guts DID NOT spill out because one account did not go into such detail...

By the way...There were radical groups of Christians outside of the Catholic church and have been since the 1st century church...


Last edited by Doctrine on Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:34 pm
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