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"Ban White People From Hip-Hop"
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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I think this was the more interesting race thread.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 1:53 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Notch:

thanks for the reply, my thoughts are by no means concreted and if I say things... decisivly its more for clarity.

"I would say that martial arts influenced ME. "

I would agree with you. However, I think there is a difference between martial arts and popular culture. Your fighting style will probably not change how martial arts is practiced, agreed?

However, clearly Eminem and the Beastie Boys have changed how hip hop is practiced. This is what I meant by whites influencing the culture.

"And, for the sake of argument, lets say there was a white person there as well. That doesnt matter. It was still overall BLACK CULTURE that spawned it! "

Oh I agree, I said the same thing in a response to another poster. I would never argue that black culture did not spawn hip hop. I am merely poiting out that hip hops origins are not necessarily hip hops present state.

"They conform to its rules, rules designed by Black culture. "

I disagree. Take Anticon. Anticon is clearly breaking the rules of hip hop, they are doing things differenlty. Does that mean they aren't hip hop? I don't think so. Rules are made to be broken, and in anyh music genre they have been broken and redefined countless times.

"Unfortunatly for you we'er to Intellingent for that spanky. Go listen to quiet riot or some shit. "

what?

"August Spies your wrong about the 70% of hip hop being white. "

i was just repeated the claim often made that 70% of hip hop records are bought by white people. I don't understand your english comparison, it seems like silly semantics. English and england are obviously two seperate things.

" Everyone is envited for the ride, Just respect the driver! "

Id agree with this too though im not so sure non-black artists can't be in the drivers seat as well.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:58 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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"i am not a cash money reject but at least i know better than thrift shops and new balances. "

You "know better?" haha. You can spend 200 bucks on a pair of pants if you want to... anyway I wouldn't consider myself a hip hop kid really...and

WHAT? we are debating fasion here? im not continuing this...
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:00 pm
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Notch



Joined: 19 Aug 2002
Posts: 24
Location: Cambridge
No doubt  Reply with quote  

My bad, I wasnt to clear on that "spanky" remark. I was directing that toward the idiot not you. For the most part I dont disagree with what you said but there are a few things that are gonna seperate our points of view.

While I think Eminem is a phenominal artist, I dont agree that he has changed the rules of hip hop. I think he is really good at conforming to the rules while remaining himself. I'm not saying theres no room for originality or individuality in hip hop, but you do have to move along certain guidlines for it to be hip hop.

As far as anticon, I honestly cant say I've heard alot of there music. my point is that for there music to even be called hip hip that in itself means that they are within theguidlines. Those guidelines are what define the culture as seperate from others. What I'm saying is that an artist can be as creative as they want but once they step outside those lines then it becomes somthing else. I dont know, If there that good then maybe they will coin a new catagory of music like punk rock did with rock.

Lincoln park comes to mind. I dig there shit alot. They rap and had executioners on its goin down but I wouldnt consider that hip hop. Its good music, no doubt but its differnt from hip hop.

My point about the 70% thing was that the fact that people are buying records only means their listening it doesnt mean that there participating in the culture.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:17 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Notch:

You are totally right about people buying the music not meaning they are really a part of the culture. 100%

Eminem... nah, he probably isn't changing the rules. I would still argue that some undergound whtie artists (El-p, anticon, aesop rock etc...) are though... but I think I understand where you are coming from
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:52 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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Rap is a product of inner-city youth culture, specifically New York's.

It was not solely the invention or province of any single race.

Yes, those neighborhoods in which it was fostered did have a demographic preponderance of non-whites, and blacks in particular.

However, it was never exclusive or perceived as "a black thing" until it began to register on the radar screen of the mainstream consciousness. It was EXTERNALLY perceived as "a black thing" by the overwhelmingly white majority of pop culture. Reflexively, this was accepted in a sort of psychic backwash by rap's actual participants and pioneers.

Rap is the real modern American folk music. Folk music, by and large, is the province of the poor. Is poverty a black thing? Some would put it that way, but I'd invert it - due to certain historical factors, it's most accurate to say that in American, being black is a poor thing. It's a smokescreen either way - the truth is that even in the matter of the cradle of hip hop, economics are a more vital concern than skin tone.

Just ask yourself this question:

- when did rap start self-identifying as "black"?

Compelling followup: was it even in the EARLY 80s?
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:52 pm
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amano



Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 992
Location: exiled in Cackalack!
Re: notch  Reply with quote  

Bathtub wrote:
your trying to hard to make yourself look more intelligent than me.


LOL.. trying??


Quote:

i will never see you in person.


along with any other black person.


Quote:

your a piece of shit, just cause your black your being a huge dick head about all this.


I'd love to hear your explaination as to how he's bein a dick. If anything, he's been civillised about this thu-out this whole discussion. Just because he's not bein an uncle tom and complying with you narrow minded opinion doesn't mean he's bein a dick. I s'pose your arrogance can't seem to realize that, and that's where you gettin angry over this is stemming from.


Quote:

get off the fucking band wagon that so many of your colored friends share.


get off the bandwagon that so many of your white friends share.


Quote:

whites are not devils


with cats like you out there, that's a debatable subject.


Quote:

we are all racist, we are all prejudice. deal with it


agreed we all have issues with prejudice we need to deal with, altho it looks as if instead of dealin with em, you seemed to have embraced them. I deal with it within, I know at times I may feel as if I do have prejudices towards people, I'll openly admit. The thing is, I do what I can do deal with it and figure out how it is I can rid myself with it. Something I'm convinced you can't seem to do. I s'pose if someone were subjected to humiliation or anything destructive towards them because they might've been black, you'd also say deal with it.

since racism is defined by economic and racial supremacy over another people while continuing to keep them down..

how are blacks in a position to be racist??

Please form your responses in a civilised, mature, and intelligent manner. Bathtub, your input will not be excluded, then again, it won't be taken seriously either.

one more thing..

by what yer sayin with a culture that was originated by blacks, they shouldn't have nor will they have power in running what they originated in the first place?? Since it was started in the inner city NYC which does happen to be predominately black, they shouldn't have any power within hiphop culture?? Damn, and here I thought you were actually saying that blacks in the inner city do in fact have the power get out and achieve wealth independently, yet I find it funny that you get pissed off at any point that was made about what I just said. Guess they have the power to do so, but won't ever do it since by what you say, they aren't running shit. Sounds like another case of racial arrogance once again. Feelin the need to have white folks runnin everything behind the scenes.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 5:54 pm
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amano



Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 992
Location: exiled in Cackalack!
btw bathtub..  Reply with quote  

here's a site that's prolly more to your liking..

http://www.resistancerecords.com
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:01 pm
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Notch



Joined: 19 Aug 2002
Posts: 24
Location: Cambridge
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Jessy I think your questions were addressed in most of the previous posts. Real quick though, I dont think hip hop needs to be Identified by color, it should be a given. True, the iner city is a major aspect of the culture as well a econimics but the importance of both go right along with the black expirence. Dude, this wouldnt even have been an argument ten years ago. Were you listening to Hip Hop in 89? (another summer) If so than try and remeber what the culture looked like. This argument would have been ridiculous then, I think it still is. The basics of the culture only need to be Identified when cats who dont know anybetter get it twisted.

Oh and by the way, I havent even listened to what that so called reverend said. I can imagine it was bullshit though.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:04 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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amano> Racism is a simple thing, it doesn't require a privileged position. All it requires is attention to race - generally in a prejudicial context, but in any event it has nothing to do with what someone is empowered to do - just the angle in which they regard things.

Notch> Yeah, 89 was roughly when I was getting into rap (I'm 22 and I live in Nova Scotia, I was especially fortunate to get into it when I did). But here's part of my point - you're totally right that at that time, the lines were already drawn in the sand. By 89, we all knew rap was "a black thing". We need to go back further to that to strip rap of its hard and fast racial affiliations. All I'm saying is that I'd be surprised if anyone said rap was especially FUBU before 1983 at the absolute earliest.

Was the face presented by rap to the world a black face? Yes, no question. But that face didn't belong to a uniformly black body, and furthermore it wasn't concerned with the matter until someone else said it ought to be.

Picture a party at the Roxy in 1977... who's uprocking? Who has the paintstains? Who's on the wheels? Are they really ALL black in that picture? Because if they are, that picture is probably just backlit.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:15 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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Everyone involved in that piece pretty much came off idiotic in my mind. They should have just given Chuck D a call and interviewed him about shit and left both of those jokers off. It seemed to me that the Rev. wanted to make other points, and that he is using the ban whites from hiphop statement just so he can say the rest of his things.

This is what happens when Prince Paul produces for Paul Barman.

As far as the rest of everything, for me hiphop is not a culture, just a musical genre, but I can see how some people feel strongly that way.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:16 pm
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kilgore trout



Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Location: charlottesville VA
august spies..  Reply with quote  

your right, its stupid to debate fashion.

just wanted to say just b/c suttin is expensive doesn't make it tasteful and vice versa. just look at 217$ sean john velour suits, ugh.
shits look like overgrown pajamas
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:36 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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i have to say, though I said I think hip hop came from black culture, I think Jesse makes quite an interesting point. Do you have any more... info on that?
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:36 pm
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amano



Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 992
Location: exiled in Cackalack!
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Jesse wrote:
amano> Racism is a simple thing, it doesn't require a privileged position. All it requires is attention to race - generally in a prejudicial context, but in any event it has nothing to do with what someone is empowered to do - just the angle in which they regard things.

Notch> Yeah, 89 was roughly when I was getting into rap (I'm 22 and I live in Nova Scotia, I was especially fortunate to get into it when I did). But here's part of my point - you're totally right that at that time, the lines were already drawn in the sand. By 89, we all knew rap was "a black thing". We need to go back further to that to strip rap of its hard and fast racial affiliations. All I'm saying is that I'd be surprised if anyone said rap was especially FUBU before 1983 at the absolute earliest.

Was the face presented by rap to the world a black face? Yes, no question. But that face didn't belong to a uniformly black body, and furthermore it wasn't concerned with the matter until someone else said it ought to be.

Picture a party at the Roxy in 1977... who's uprocking? Who has the paintstains? Who's on the wheels? Are they really ALL black in that picture? Because if they are, that picture is probably just backlit.


you know..

I had a long statement typed out in response to this, and as soon as I hit submit, they made me sign in again. When I did that, everything was lost.

WTF!!!!! I'm heated now. I gotta type this all over again.


the first statement you made. I think that a big part of racism is superiority over another people. I do in fact believe priveledge while not always does in fact play a part in racism. As we all know inner city (predominately black) population isn't necessarily as priveledged and get the same oppurtunities as the white population. They see that and look at them as lower than them. Like I said it doesn't always play a part but it does in a lot of cases. It's not the only thing because generalizations, hate from fear also come into play. Generalizations, stereotypes and seein em the way they want to see them instead of how they really are, drives them to keep em down even more when they try to do what they can to maintain and achieve those same oppurtunities and priveledges. With that, a lot of people believe they're not gonna be able to ever get any of those said things. So they go through life like theirs no hope and start believin the generalizations and the only way they can get anything in life is thru what they associate them with. Being criminals, junkies, thugs etc etc etc. Folks do have the power to get out and work hard at achieving what they want in life, but it's not 100% their fault that they've ended up where they are.

"walkin talkin dead though we think we're livin/we just copy cat followin the system" - Nas on "black zombies"

This was worded so much better before, but shit you know the deal I spent a lot of my thought and energy on that post and had it erased.

as for the other thing at the end. I know that it was towards notch but I do agree on some part that in the begining even tho the majority of the inner city youth participating and contributing in hiphop were black, it's not to say there were others (latinos, whites, asians for the most part) doin the same. I do believe it was their aim in the begining for this to be reached out to everyone and become universal. Even tho that some may believe that's a copout and an excuse for whiteboys to justify tryin to be down. I really do believe that it's open towards anyone who knows where it's comin from and where they're comin from. Even at this point throughout the effed up things goin on in our community (whether it be the mainstream, or underground) I think it can still maintain that aim as long as we know where we are and where we're from in this community.

I used to wish I could break with rocksteady.

Unfortunately, not everyone knows what's up, that's why the mainstream nowadays is so full of the garbage that it's full of nowadays. There's no moderation, in fact, there's parts of the underground where there's no moderation either (not to mention how a lot of it nowadays tends to secede from everything else goin on but that's another discussion). I'm countin on somethin to come along and give it a huge kick in the ass. I like some of the mainstream ish out there right now, hell I find some of it even better than some of the underground ish that's goin on right now, but we do need moderation. However, I've gone off into another direction and brought up another topic of discussion for another time. Altho it does sorta tie into the whole race nad hiphop issue. I just don't feel like gettin into this part right now. Maybe later in another thread.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:30 pm
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amano



Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 992
Location: exiled in Cackalack!
Re: august spies..  Reply with quote  

kilgore trout wrote:
your right, its stupid to debate fashion.

just wanted to say just b/c suttin is expensive doesn't make it tasteful and vice versa. just look at 217$ sean john velour suits, ugh.
shits look like overgrown pajamas


zactly, and just because it's from a thrift store doesn't mean it's hot either. It can go either way. I've seen bammas on both sides of the spectrum. I try to moderate somehow. 555 soul jeans and a thrift store polo? hehe yeah.. sometimes. I like both sides. I agree what ya said tho there.
Post Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:33 pm
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