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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5456
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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The real irony here is if you were actually taking a stance based on class struggle you would support the FSA, which is mostly comprised of the rural* poor. These people suffered the most from Assadís neoliberal reforms. The upper class - Christian, Sunni, and Alawi - mostly support the regime.

So why is a self-described Marxist supporting a neoliberalizing dictator and his wealthy cronies against poor rural revolutionaries? Blanket thinking, as explained above. The world is reduced to a simple binary: whatever the US supports is bad, whoever opposes the US is good.

Whatís even more ironic is that Assad is hardly the anti-American force you make him to be. He cooperated with the US on terrorism after 9-11 (going so far as allow Syria to serve as a black site for torturing suspects) and only began supporting the Iraqi insurgents after the Neocons started murmuring about taking out Syria next (when they were still riding that ďMission AccomplishedĒ high). If you have any doubts about how much of a frenemy Assad is, read the Israeli press. They mostly donít want to see him go. He may have supported Hezbollah, but he also kept the Golan quiet. An unstable Syria (or one run by Islamists) is likely to pose more of a problem to Israeli interests than Assad ever did.

Even using your own simplistic logic your support for Assad doesnít make sense.

*Many of those described as rural actually live in the suburbs on the outskirts of the cities, but this is due to recent urbanization, their background is in the countryside and thatís how they are usually identified.
Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:23 pm
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GrantherBirdly
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crash: well said and on point.
Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:31 pm
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Dan Shay



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
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crash wrote:
b. dolan wrote:
You came back to note that you won an argument that happened 6 years ago.

That is very Italian. Whether or not you're Italian. Respect.

yeah pretty much.

i never was a fan of the idea that you had to be a bit autocratic to achieve social justice. the lack of criticism from the left regarding chavez's power grabs and other less than savory policies bugged me as much as the undo criticism he got from the mainstream media. i came here to say as much and was told that you had to break some eggs, ya know?

so i came back to say fuck that. if only dan shay were still around. le sigh.


The New York Times is opportunistically humanitarian.

Hugo Chavez is an autocrat.

But is he really? I still wonder why does he get all this attention when in places like Colombia the regime is spraying a variant of Agent Orange on all crops not held by drug kingpins that actually run the government and they, if my numbers are still current, are the third largest US military beneficiary in the world after Israel and Egypt.

Do you really care about people or is he just tickling your ideologue funny bone?

Support for Hugo Chavez at the time, Bush being in office and all, was a serious endeavor for anyone who has had a history lesson regarding US gunboat diplomacy in Latin America from the 1950s and after. Anyone with a soul at least. It still is. The Coup attempt was de ja vou and anyone who couldn't and still cant see it for what it is is a mark.

The US is still guzzling gasoline at a pace that makes it seem we've all gone stark raving insane and now part of the inspiration isn't only outright desperation to get oil at the cheapest prices available but also that Venezuela is serious market competition to the fracking operation that has fully come online.

Go ahead and beat on Chavez, he's a dying man.

I will not defend Venezuelas choice to trade with Syria, but if being a trading partner with an oppressive and bloody regime was a standard for supporting rebels the US would be in quite some trouble. It's harder to say that now since the US has a PR savvy President that will only slaughter folks in 'Low Intensity Conflicts' .

Certain US interests are extremely upset Venezeula is set to ramp up production to undermine the market value of the US fracking operation, and those interests are extremely eager to pull some strings should there be a power vacuum given Chavez's current condition. The funny thing is this isn't even driven by the Oil companies who see Venezuela as a reliable blue chip trading partner, but ideologues who refer to Latin America as 'our backyard'.


The other thing that is interesting in all this is in all likelihood you wouldn't support the Syrian 'rebels' getting assistance if you knew how mujihadeen'ish they really were, at least according to the right-wing outlets that are also harping on Chavez.

I still dislike your 50% ad hominem persusian style, this left wing straw man you keep opening up your closet and screaming at periodically is making you seem a little 'off'. I won't be back to go tit for tat at all the points made after this, I'm too busy building robots that build robots because I can.
Post Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:30 am
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GrantherBirdly
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building robots that build robots that build robots that support Chavez?
Post Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:27 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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crash come hiking with me. The Whites aren't that far off from the Dax if you're coming from DC.

Also this seemed relevant here:

Post Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:34 pm
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3flip



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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Anyone else think Chavez and Obama are both pieces of shit?

I know this is old but it is new to me
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=qyNnkNDyDYI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqyNnkNDyDYI

I have become a very big fan of Jeremy scahill as of late
Post Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:08 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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I think itíd be fun to write a post full of Dan Shay style apologetics but switch it so it defends an imperialist.


Quote:

Netanyahu is an autocrat.

But is he really? I still wonder why does he get all this attention when in places like Syria the regime is slaughtering its own people by the thousands.

Do you really care about people or is he just tickling your ideologue funny bone?

Support for Netanyahu, the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power in Egypt, is a serious endeavor for anyone who has had a history lesson regarding anti-Semitism in the Middle East from the 1950s and after. Anyone with a soul at least. It still is. The Gaza rocket attacks were deja vu and anyone who couldn't and still canít see it for what it is is a mark.

Go ahead and beat on Bibi.

I will not defend Israelís choice to trade with apartheid era South Africa, but if being a trading partner with an oppressive and bloody regime was a standard for supporting rebels the US would be in quite some trouble. It's harder to say that now since the US has a PR savvy President that will only slaughter folks in 'Low Intensity Conflicts' .


Sounds like bullshit right? Cause it is. Like many leftists, you never fail to hammer the US for its sins and apologize for those of the anti-imperialists. Thatís why I came back to post this.

For what itís worth I get equally pissed when I hear Chavez referred to as autocratic in the mainstream media when they donít apply that same label to the King of Morocco. Itís the same bullshit use of double standards I see from you (and most of the anti-imperialist left). But I donít post about MSM hypocrisy on here because I figure that everyone already gets that our media is more or less part of the neo-imperialist project.

I never supported arming the opposition, but Iím beginning to wonder if that was wise, considering that Qatar, Turkey, and KSA are funneling arms to the more Islamist groups and consequently the secular leaning forces are less influential. For a good breakdown on the ďmujahedeenishĒ nature of the rebels, go here: http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/?p=16910. Itís a lot better than the right wing media.


Quote:

Anyone else think Chavez and Obama are both pieces of shit?


Maybe POS was a bit strong. I posted here because I got tired of hearing ďViva ChavezĒ - people blindly cheerleading a guy who was doing some very questionable things. I think we all agree that Obama has numerous substantial flaws Ė his drone policy, aggressive handling of leaks, etc. But I donít see anyone here buying into Obamania wholesale like they did for Chavez (though of course we all know those people IRL) and I also see plenty of people posting well informed criticism of his policies. So I donít feel motivated to stir the pot by starting a thread ďObama: POSĒ

Jake Ė Iím doing a one day Presi Traverse this summer. Maybe before or after we could grab a beer or do a day hike or something. Sometime in August. Iíll definitely hit you up.
Post Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:42 pm
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Dr Sagacious



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Besides, of course, trading with Syria, what "questionable things" has Chavez done?

Let me clarify my position further.

One, if there were no such thing as the FSA, which is ever increasingly comprised of foreign mercenaries, I would wholeheartedly support the overthrow of Assad by the working class and declassed strata of Syria. But, this is not reality. What is reality is the foreign agitation of the Syrian people via economic sanctions imposed for years. I assume you know the effects of economic sanctions, and how it devestates civilians (the working class, first and foremost). Sanctions are an act of war; instead of bombing schools and hospitals, they are simply shut down as funds disappear from the treasury. What happens when basic social services are being gutted by economic sanctions over a given period of time (in Syria's case, generations)? Children are brought up either with little to no education, elderly or peoples with disabilities cannot get the treatment or care that they require. The sum is the destruction of communities, and the polarization of the masses into far-right or far-left camps that offer programmes to change their conditions. In Syria's case, the poor Sunni population has lumped themselves into the far-right reactionary camp that shares its space with al-Qaeda linked terrorist groups. There is no hope for qualitative improvement for the working class and oppressed strata of the Syrian population under such a movement. It will only lead to the subordination of the Syrian government to Western interests, which will do nothing for the country's stability (see Libya) and will only worsen their conditions going forward. Perhaps Bashar al-Assad is an asshole (he is), but I would rather someone retain power who does not wish to play ball with Western imperialism. When it comes to Assad working with the U.S. after 9/11 for their war on turrur, he was put in a pickle. That pickle was: work with the U.S. on their silly war or face harsher economic sanctions. It was a lose-lose in the end, anyways. The U.S. did nothing to curb al-Qaeda influence within the country.

In regards to your criticism that I am "blanket thinking" - U.S. bad, everyone else good - I believe you were the one that oversimplified my stance, even after I said Assad is no force for good, and I would be blind as a bat to think he was a force for the working class of his country (like Chavez is in Venezeula). The real issue is that you feel it is ironic that I wouldn't support the FSA despite some of the composition of its forces being that of poor or working Syrians. Perhaps, you should consider what you have already admitted to: the FSA is lead by Islamists and former Syrian military personnel. What possibly could they offer in economic relief to the Syrians but status quo or even harsher repression (see Egypt, the military's role in the overthrow of Mubarak, and the Fascist-like consolidation and overreaching of political power by Morsi)?

And Islamist state and military repression has existed since the Caliphates, I do so believe, but in different form and towards a different end. Islamism, especially in Saudi Arabia in the present and since its inception, does nothing but exact U.S. and other Western oil interests.
Post Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:59 pm
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the mean
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crash wrote:
I took a bit off the top of my finger while cooking this weekend

Pics?
Post Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:31 am
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crash



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Chavez has engaged on a program of consolidating the power of the executive ever since he got in office, including stacking the courts and eliminating the upper house of Congress. Also the four terms heís been in office and cult of personality heís built (assisted by his weekly 6 hour TV show) donít help his democratic credentials.

The Syrian Sunnis have NOT thrown in their lot with ďreactionariesĒ. The reverse has happened. There was a popular uprising, mostly comprised of poor Sunnis, with which the Jihadists found common cause. That is no fault of the uprising, it is simply the nature of sectarian dynamics in the Middle East today.

The rebels are radicalizing and foreigners are playing more of a role as time goes on, but that does not discredit the anti-Assad forces. And certain by no stretch of the imagination are most of the rebels foreigners, as you said earlier. I canít find any credible source supporting that statement.

Youíre also wrong about Libya, which held free and fair elections (without US interference) and seems to be on a (albeit relatively rocky) road to stability. Libya certainly isnít much worse off than Tunisia or Egypt, which overthrew their dictators without outside assistance, yet have seen 100s die in post-revolution violence.

See Egypt? Really? If you donít think we should support the FSA because it could lead to an Islamist state in Syria, did you not support the Egyptian Revolution for the same reason?

ďIslamismÖ does nothing but exact U.S. and other Western oil interests?Ē In Iran too? In Afghanistan and Pakistan? In southern Lebanon?

My finger:



Last edited by crash on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:59 pm
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crash



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double penetration

Last edited by crash on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm
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erich



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i really thought this thread was about to be a review of POS' new album by Hugo Chavez. which would have been WAY MORE AWESOME. just saying.
Post Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


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I bet Chavez would be a big fan of Fuck Your Shit.
Post Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:32 pm
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Dan Shay



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R.I.P.

Post Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:44 pm
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Jared Paul



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erich wrote:
i really thought this thread was about to be a review of POS' new album by Hugo Chavez. which would have been WAY MORE AWESOME. just saying.


I definitely thought there was going to be a connection too!

I do not at all believe that Chavez was perfect.

But based on many non-governmental reports, and on the testimony of my drummer/close friend who is from Caracas (and many of his family members), poverty in Venezuela has decreased nearly every year since Chavez was elected and the U.S. corporate influence in South America is at the lowest it's been in over 200 years. Chavez policies were a huge part of that. I think that's fucking awesome.

Chavez consolidated power, manipulated media, refused to curb fossil fuel usage till the Super powers did first, and tactically supported anti-imperialist Dictators posing as socialists, while Obama resides over kill lists and drone strikes with high civilian casualty risks, approves hundreds of drones for domestic spying/assault/security, schills for the Nuclear industry, resides over the "justice" system with the highest imprisonment rate in the world, extends the Bush tax cuts, guts public education, and is a few months away from approving the Keystone XL. Not to mention supports and has supported and worked with dictators who are far more brutal than Gadaffi or Assad, let alone Chavez.

That said, FUCK GADDAFI AND ASSAD. As a Socialist (Trotskyist), I agree with Crash and think it's absurd to support Assad or Gaddafi. However, I don't think that makes Chavez a "piece of shit" either. And certainly, as I stated earlier and as Dr. Sag pointed out, if Chavez is a pos, than in terms of world leaders, there are many that are far worse, starting right here at home.

Politics is mad complicated yo.


Last edited by Jared Paul on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:26 pm
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