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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8501
Location: Third Coast
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GrantherBirdly wrote:
Captiv8 wrote:
When you wear what you want, you aren't a part of any overriding cultural mode; you are effectively a functionalist. When you wear what you think is cool, trendy, hip, or desirable you are subscribing to materialist purview. Let's make the distinction there.


You're capable of making that distinction? Because I honestly am not. I used to think wearing the most nondescript, brand-less, and monochromatic clothing was most honest. Then I realized that those clothes send out cultural / status signifiers just like anything else. I also realized that I was completely incapable of distinguishing my feelings on what "I want" vs. "what I am culturally conditioned to want." This realization extends well beyond clothing. Nowadays I don't view humans as an authentic core vying against external cultural influences. I think of us as fundamentally products of culture, for better and worse.


I think so, but I probably pay more attention to fashion than the average person. I know that my style is not functionalist, but it isn't necessarily driven by labels and what's popular. I tend to shop a lot at thrift stores for everything except jeans and trousers, as finding the style and fit I want is challenging. But I also tend to look for items that are both fashionable and devoid of obvious branding. I know I do this because I simply like to look good on a budget, and because I eschew paying ridiculous prices for clothing unless I'm getting a really superior product. Anyway, I see plenty of people that wear clothes not as self-expression but because going outside of the house naked isn't an option. In other words, they just kind of put shirts and pants on with nary a care, and stroll out the door to go about their business. That's fine too. I see both of those expressions as fundamentally the same in comparison to wearing clothes for an express social purpose, i.e. sporting Tommy Hilfiger so that people know you (or your parents) can afford Tommy Hilfiger, or because it's what the cool kids wear and you want to be cool too, or because it helps you feel a greater social standing than what you may actually possess.

So what I'm talking about in comparison to your point is how you view yourself within the cultural paradigm, not how other people view you. There is a difference between wanting to look good versus wanting others to think you look good. The former is functional but it is purposeful for the self, and the latter is materialist because it purposefully presents the self to others for approval and related ideas.

But again, this is just some armchair musing. I don't really know what the psychology of fashion is, what the nuanced anthropological implications are, and why brand names are important to some and not to others.

And are you really incapable of distinguishing between want you want versus what you think society wants you to want? You've always struck me as an insightful and intuitive person (as much as is possible in this format). Surely you can parse out your own feelings in your discourse with the world around you.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:13 pm
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Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1256
Location: London
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Nah, he's spot on. It's because he's insightful and intuitive that he has made that realisation and can be more honest with himself than you are able to be.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:27 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8501
Location: Third Coast
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Jesse Custer wrote:
Nah, he's spot on. It's because he's insightful and intuitive that he has made that realisation and can be more honest with himself than you are able to be.


And obviously less presumptuous than yourself. You are presuming, among other things, that Granther and I have roughly the same background, share the same views and opinions, and want, as much as that word entails, the same things. Are you going to contribute or just talk shit? Don't make me bust out the "Shut Up Cunt" video again.

It's not about honesty. If we're talking about a subconscious individual impulse toward something society has formed, like an embedded anthropological function to act or react without cognizance, than one cannot realize it. If you can, than you can distinguish it from the predominant social aspect. If there is no way to delineate between the self and society, than what's the point? Not to mention that would create some sticky epistemological issues. We all, on some level, identify ourselves in relation to other things, be they concrete or abstract, as being either a part of or apart from, or in some kind of interrelationship. Recognizing an overlap between what "I want" versus "What society tells me I want" is also recognizing a difference between the two. Otherwise you would frame it as totally inseparable.

I also believe that we are capable of realizing certain wants as transcendent from social prescription, for we are not the total products of our environment, nor is experience the only medium through which we interpret the world around us. Let's say what I want is to help other people, through medicine or education or a simple donation. Am I doing these things because I am compelled to do so based on what is normative in society, or because there is something within me that tells me they are right, just, appropriate, enriching, rewarding, or otherwise fulfilling things to do? If we're talking about "want" from the perspective of the consumer, I think the same thing applies. I can want a sweater because I think it looks stylish, comfortable, and warm, not because it has John Varvatos or whoever attached to it. Do I want it more because of the name? Maybe, maybe not. Suppose it has no tags at all. Would I still want it? Yes, because of its function independent of fashion stock. Point being, the wants of the individual are not mutually exclusive or inclusive. But that very fact makes them distinguishable as two separate things that inform the other, as Granther said, for better or worse. Which brings us to nature versus nurture, and a bit off topic.

So I ask you, Mr. Custer, are you going to contribute or just talk shit? Be honest with us and recognize.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:36 pm
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GrantherBirdly
D&D addict


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3144
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Captiv8 wrote:

So what I'm talking about in comparison to your point is how you view yourself within the cultural paradigm, not how other people view you. There is a difference between wanting to look good versus wanting others to think you look good. The former is functional but it is purposeful for the self, and the latter is materialist because it purposefully presents the self to others for approval and related ideas.



I guess the distinction of "wanting to look good versus wanting others to think you look good" doesn't mean much to me. My very notion of "looking good" is already so culturally conditioned that it would be impossible to parse out where my true self's evaluation ends and an externally influenced evaluation begins. I started realizing this when I would spend time in other countries and, after a few weeks, start feeling silly in the same clothes I'd wear in the states without thinking twice. Maybe I'm just easily impressionable and changeable. But it seems more likely that it's next to impossible to disentangle our judgment calls from the cultural milieus we're immersed in.
Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:26 pm
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zagadka
DARK PAST HAVER


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 4931
Location: Hous of Gaga
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Jesse Custer wrote:
Everyone can be a crazy hormonal changeable twat at times with no controlof their own emotions; male or female. Sorry to disappoint your rationality aand logic but it happens to all of us sometimes.

To dismiss the notion of some 'magic hormone' thing completely is also thewrong way to look at things.


When was the last time you heard anyone call a male hormonal?

"He gets in fist fights all the time because he's just so hormonal!"

I guess I shouldn't dismiss magic hormones after all...
Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:29 pm
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zagadka
DARK PAST HAVER


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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Location: Hous of Gaga
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Prontoid wrote:
Clearly a big part of any organism's makeup is to reproduce...female dogs sometimes are better off being allowed to have one litter early in life before they are spayed...they tend to react differently to the spaying...


I'm pretty damn sure you're not comparing people to dogs. Right?
Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:34 pm
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Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1256
Location: London
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zagadka wrote:
Jesse Custer wrote:
Everyone can be a crazy hormonal changeable twat at times with no controlof their own emotions; male or female. Sorry to disappoint your rationality aand logic but it happens to all of us sometimes.

To dismiss the notion of some 'magic hormone' thing completely is also thewrong way to look at things.


When was the last time you heard anyone call a male hormonal?

"He gets in fist fights all the time because he's just so hormonal!"

I guess I shouldn't dismiss magic hormones after all...


Yeah, you're right.. It's a label that guys don't get tagged with as much. But Iguess that's kind of what iI was saying - it's not just that women get accused of it too much but rather guys don't get it enough.
Post Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:43 am
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6376
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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Yesss yesssss yessssssss.... men can be hormonal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqaAmRER7_M
Post Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:49 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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zagadka wrote:
Jesse Custer wrote:
Everyone can be a crazy hormonal changeable twat at times with no controlof their own emotions; male or female. Sorry to disappoint your rationality aand logic but it happens to all of us sometimes.

To dismiss the notion of some 'magic hormone' thing completely is also thewrong way to look at things.


When was the last time you heard anyone call a male hormonal?

"He gets in fist fights all the time because he's just so hormonal!"

I guess I shouldn't dismiss magic hormones after all...


I feel like the word "testosterone" is likely to get thrown around in this sort of situation
Post Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:36 pm
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Prontoid



Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 1605
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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zagadka wrote:
Prontoid wrote:
Clearly a big part of any organism's makeup is to reproduce...female dogs sometimes are better off being allowed to have one litter early in life before they are spayed...they tend to react differently to the spaying...


I'm pretty damn sure you're not comparing people to dogs. Right?


Not at all - I referred to dogs because I have qualifications in dog training so it is a subject I am familiar with...It could have been any organism, including single celled...we are all driven to reproduce..most people who don't intellectually want kids still like to have intercourse...
Post Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:49 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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Prontoid wrote:
zagadka wrote:
Prontoid wrote:
Clearly a big part of any organism's makeup is to reproduce...female dogs sometimes are better off being allowed to have one litter early in life before they are spayed...they tend to react differently to the spaying...


I'm pretty damn sure you're not comparing people to dogs. Right?


Not at all - I referred to dogs because I have qualifications in dog training so it is a subject I am familiar with...It could have been any organism, including single celled...we are all driven to reproduce..most people who don't intellectually want kids still like to have intercourse...


Do lesbians have sex because they want to reproduce?

When a John sleeps with a prostitute does he intend to reproduce?

People like sex because they find it pleasurable. Not because they intend to reproduce.
Post Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:47 pm
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ecapataz



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1960
Location: Bonn, Germany
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futuristxen wrote:

Do lesbians have sex because they want to reproduce?



Technically speaking Lesbians can't have sex (or reproduce). Not sure how its relevant.


futuristxen wrote:

When a John sleeps with a prostitute does he intend to reproduce?



The intention isn't there but the desire to reproduce is what guided him into that transaction from the beginning.

futuristxen wrote:

People like sex because they find it pleasurable. Not because they intend to reproduce.



Agreed but the urge to procreate is the strongest catalyst of sex.
Post Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:43 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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DeadAwake wrote:
As for sexual assault, as an act, but when you say as a result of psychological sickness you have piqued my interest. Sure i say its a sickness, but specifically what you mean by this, i cant see. Do you mean its some kind of abnormality in the psyche, like a glitch? A lapse in conscience overpowered by sexual desire, or an opportunistic grab when the situation presents itself?


Sexual assault typically is the result of some negative psychosis. Attackers are normally not of sound mind. They don't fit the legal definition of insane, but they are not acting as a sane, normal member of society does. Rapists will exist, even if we were to turn into a maternalistic society, let alone if we achieve some sort of true parity.

Yes, some sexual assault - some instances of date rape - happen not because a person is mentally unsound, but because they make a terrible decision. Not everyone that sleeps with a drunken girl is a predator, sometimes they're drunk guys and they think that's what they should do. In a more just world these guys would know for sure, even with impaired judgment, that she can't consent. Maybe those guys would be affected by a significant decrease in misogynistic attitudes compared to today.

But for every one of those guys there is a guy who has issues with control and self-esteem, and they use physical dominance and sexual contact to deal with that. There's guys with personality disorders, basically psychopaths, who do not care about the effects of their actions on others. It is not misogyny or mere lapse of judgment that cause someone to take pleasure in the agony and struggles of others. These people, and their psychological disorders, will not disappear because we change our cultural attitude towards women. In fact, that may just push more of them over the edge as they feel they have lost what power they once had.

Anyway, I'll leave you with this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x6yef/reddits_had_a_few_threads_about_sexual_assault/c5jtt3p
Note that that thread is pretty intense. I think it's actually worthy of a trigger warning for its depictions of a rapist. No way to verify what that guy said, but realize that he was at least sick enough to write it, if not do it. Plus, what he describes is basically how many rapists function.

ps. I'm not great about replying these days. Sorry.
Post Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:35 pm
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GrantherBirdly
D&D addict


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3144
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ecapataz wrote:
futuristxen wrote:

Do lesbians have sex because they want to reproduce?



Technically speaking Lesbians can't have sex (or reproduce). Not sure how its relevant.


futuristxen wrote:

When a John sleeps with a prostitute does he intend to reproduce?



The intention isn't there but the desire to reproduce is what guided him into that transaction from the beginning.

futuristxen wrote:

People like sex because they find it pleasurable. Not because they intend to reproduce.



Agreed but the urge to procreate is the strongest catalyst of sex.


yeah but behaviors can eventually decouple from the instinctual drives that formed them. We all eat food. You could argue we do this for survival, and you'd be right. But survival is only one part of what constitutes "eating" nowadays. We also eat for pleasure, sociality, courtship, status signalling, self-hatred, etc. If we just ate for survival I'd be shoveling GrapeNuts by the handful in my mouth for every meal. Same goes for clothes. We originally wore clothes (I'd imagine) to protect ourselves from the elements. And while that's still a definite reason we do so, it's now one of many other reasons. For example, see Reebok Pumps.
Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:51 am
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8501
Location: Third Coast
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redball wrote:
Anyway, I'll leave you with this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x6yef/reddits_had_a_few_threads_about_sexual_assault/c5jtt3p
Note that that thread is pretty intense. I think it's actually worthy of a trigger warning for its depictions of a rapist. No way to verify what that guy said, but realize that he was at least sick enough to write it, if not do it. Plus, what he describes is basically how many rapists function.


That was very disturbing, and truly sociopathic.
Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:22 am
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