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adic



Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 727
Location: SJC
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Dude didn't look like he had just went through a life threatening struggle in that video to me... His defense in shaky at best...
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:05 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9208
Location: london
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ive been recovering from beer since saturday. I just found about all this shit, what the fuck man this is so crazy, surely this guy is hiding in some kinda bunker right now? and already some micro penis in here defending guns like a first born,? god damn.
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:06 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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Captiv8 wrote:
So now there is video evidence that George Zimmerman was not hurt in any way during the alleged altercation that led to Martin's death. This is counter to both Zimmerman's claims and the actual police report. Further still, Zimmerman's camp is trying to paint Martin as a regular vandal and thief. Christ.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3O7oGGmiSo


Not to be that dude, but its hard to get a good look at his head with a giant ABC logo obscuring it through most of the video. I can however clearly see a cop checking it out at 50 seconds. That and the dark line (possibly a shadow) on the back of his head at 1:07 makes me think the story is at least somewhat credible. Whats the alternative? That zimmerman chased Trayvon down and let him cry out for 30 seconds before murdering him in cold blood after calling the police and giving them his location? That doesn't make sense to me

It also doesn't make sense to me that the police would just brush over the the cold blooded murder of a young person. Do they not know how news gets around these days? Do they not care at all about their reputations? If Zimmerman was found with a gash on the back of his head and a bloody nose as reported and trayvon was found with no marks on him aside from the gunshot wound it would be obvious whos voice was heard yelling for help during the phone call and it would be clear that it was indeed an act of self defense. If you have a more plausible theory given the information available let me know
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:10 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9208
Location: london
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Bicycle wrote:

It also doesn't make sense to me that the police would just brush over the the cold blooded murder of a young person.


bollocks, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan - they executed this kid here and lets not forget this massive cockup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

and they tried to cover up both of em.

some people are cunts, there are a higher than average number of cunts attracted to jobs where they get a uniform and shit on people, so you get a lot of cunt policemen, i don't put anything past the fuckers, they'll take a shit in your pancake batter and smile at you mate
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:16 pm
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GrantherBirdly
D&D addict


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3143
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Bicycle wrote:
Captiv8 wrote:
So now there is video evidence that George Zimmerman was not hurt in any way during the alleged altercation that led to Martin's death. This is counter to both Zimmerman's claims and the actual police report. Further still, Zimmerman's camp is trying to paint Martin as a regular vandal and thief. Christ.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3O7oGGmiSo


Not to be that dude, but its hard to get a good look at his head with a giant ABC logo obscuring it through most of the video. I can however clearly see a cop checking it out at 50 seconds. That and the dark line (possibly a shadow) on the back of his head at 1:07 makes me think the story is at least somewhat credible. Whats the alternative? That zimmerman chased Trayvon down and let him cry out for 30 seconds before murdering him in cold blood after calling the police and giving them his location? That doesn't make sense to me

It also doesn't make sense to me that the police would just brush over the the cold blooded murder of a young person. Do they not know how news gets around these days? Do they not care at all about their reputations? If Zimmerman was found with a gash on the back of his head and a bloody nose as reported and trayvon was found with no marks on him aside from the gunshot wound it would be obvious whos voice was heard yelling for help during the phone call and it would be clear that it was indeed an act of self defense. If you have a more plausible theory given the information available let me know


sorry, but you're that dude.
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:21 pm
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xGasPricesx



Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 1456
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mancabbage wrote:
and already some micro penis in here defending guns like a first born,? god damn.


Haha, I guess that was directed towards me. I don't remember making that post, but apparently I did. Anyways, I do realize that it wasn't appropriate for this thread, but I'm not going to push the issue any farther here. I will say that I am not a gun owner though and don't care much for them personally.

p.s. It's bigger than you think.
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:02 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9208
Location: london
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We're you? I dunno, can't be buggered to click back and check. It's ok though mines smaller than a daddy long legs leg but I use it like a weapon from an 80s training montage
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:16 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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mancabbage wrote:
Bicycle wrote:

It also doesn't make sense to me that the police would just brush over the the cold blooded murder of a young person.


bollocks, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan - they executed this kid here and lets not forget this massive cockup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

and they tried to cover up both of em.

some people are cunts, there are a higher than average number of cunts attracted to jobs where they get a uniform and shit on people, so you get a lot of cunt policemen, i don't put anything past the fuckers, they'll take a shit in your pancake batter and smile at you mate


Both killed by police. Botched job. Cover up is in their best interest

We're talking a cop wannabe. Someone who undermines the authority of the police and appears to be a bit of a nuisance. Why risk ruining their reputations over him?

Assuming they're just cunt cops on power trips thrilled by the thought of one less black person in the world... What about the paramedics? Were they another fictional part of the story? Perhaps cunt paramedics on power trips thrilled by the thought of one less black person and willing to risk their reputations to cover for some cold blooded killer. We haven't heard from those guys yet. Im sure we will

Someone break it down for me

Give me a plausible reason for zimmerman to shoot trayvon.
If he was merely intent on killing someone, why call the cops beforehand?
what is the 911 call with someone screaming for help in the background for 30 seconds all about?
If there is no head wound why does the cop look at his head as if there were?
Post Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:36 pm
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Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1256
Location: London
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AdamBomb wrote:
Jesse Custer wrote:
Would it?

It's not very cut & dried, and doesn't present a nice easy narrative to break down into soundbites as well.


A 28 year old white police officer shooting an unarmed 20 year old black man to death in a pot raid (he wasn't even the focus of the raid) isn't easy to break down?


I think just the fact that there were actually drugs there makes it easier to obscure, yeah. Add to that it's part of a raid... I stand by what I said when I think of how it would be eeasier to put a different spin on this story. That's not a good thing though!
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:50 am
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2041
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Bicycle,

Ay ay ay. I'm not really trying to get myself worked up trying to change your point of view, but since you are asking in earnest I want to mention a few things.

I think you might want to check your assumptions. Its not a conspiracy to kill a black person, its more like a subconscious and institutionalized racism (that means the workings of the system itself, as opposed to the individual agents are racist) coming into to play. There is definitely something fishy going on with the Chief, who, apparently refused to charge zimmerman with manslaughter after personally speaking with the attorney general and against the recommendation of the detective investigating this.

The cops aren't so much power trippin. They mainly provide the legal and institutional cover, through selctive enforcement of the law, that would allow a man with a history of violence and aggressive policing to be armed in his neighborhood. Try to imagine the police role not as a conspiracy/cover up and more as institutional mechanism that makes it possible for zimmerman, to be taken at his word.

The only one on a "power trip" here would be zimmerman. His overzealous community policing is well documented, as are tendencies for "soft" racism. So it's not that he followed Trayvon with a motive to lynch a black person, its that his perception of the world informed his reaction to Trayvon.

Don't take this as a personal attack, but the fact that you can't imagine how the police could fail to do their job here, or that law enforcement in Florida could be biased against blacks in its enforcement of the law, and that you uncritically take for granted the active smear campaign against Trayvon Martin, says a lot about your worldview and is inhibiting your ability to understand the injustice that this is. If you want to understand, you're going to have to check your assumption bro.
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:35 am
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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Im not putting much stock in my point of view. It will change depending on what facts are presented and what makes sense to me. My bias is more towards the medias handling of this whole thing. Taking it from an unfortunate event that was handled in the worse way possible to something much more divisive

I think when people get on the institutional racism kick, they lose sight of the very real and prevalent overt racism that exists in small pockets all over the place and how this kind of sensationalized reporting allows those views to strengthen. If you've ever tried to talk white priviledge to some dejected white kid whos been on welfare their whole life you know how futile it is. You understand that your priviledge extends beyond race and blinds you to the views of those who dont share in it. Turns a DHHS line into a breeding ground for envy and hatred. So when the media's on a white guilt trip, it gets interpreted a bit differently. It seems to me at best a really irresponsible way to secure ad revenue from site hits. At worse a purposeful tactic to stir up derision between different population segments. I see a definite rise in tension. Could just be me getting older though
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:17 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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The evidence of tension is not an angry blogosphere; it's a murdered child.
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:50 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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and 10,000 to whoever finds the dude. Spike lee tweeting the wrong address. The backlash from all that. Reporters talking about racist hunger games fans like they've never seen a youtube comment section. White folks happy to tell me the difference between a black person and an N-word. Me wondering when black face became acceptable again. I guess if its a cartoon and you call it satire its alright. Protesters at wallstreet. Tip of an iceberg with no direction
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:43 pm
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FuseONE



Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 1715
Location: Newark, DE
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desert penguin wrote:
I mean, are Florida police officers really that bad at investigating a homicide? Seriously?


Have you ever been to Florida? It's not exactly a mensa convention down there.
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:21 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1972
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
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Facts not in dispute:
1. Zimmerman, in his role as a community watch participant, found Martin to be suspicious, dialed 911 and informed them of his concerns, and then followed Martin after emergency services asked him not to do so.
2. Zimmerman expressed concern that the police would not find/locate the person he was following if he ceased following.
3. Zimmerman exited his vehicle and ended up in an altercation with Martin.
4. Zimmerman used lethal force against Martin.
5. Martin had a legitimate reason to be on foot in that neighborhood: Zimmerman's initial suspicions were unfounded.

Zimmerman alleges that after he exited his vehicle, Martin attacked him and made him fear for his own imminent death. Since Martin was unarmed, he is claiming to have believed that Martin was going to kill him with his bare hands.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799%2F0776%2F0776ContentsIndex.html has the relevant state law.

The really interesting part to me:

Quote:

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.—A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


Martin was a minor, on foot in a private-property neighborhood where he had a legal right to be. Zimmerman was an adult, armed and following Martin in a vehicle. It's extremely likely that Martin was within his own "Stand Your Ground" right to use non-violent force against Zimmerman, under 776.031. By asserting that Martin did not have a right to be on property where he was an invited guest, Martin could reasonably have assumed that Zimmerman was violating the property rights of the person who invited Martin; as a member of that person's household, Martin had a right to defend her property rights with non-lethal violence.

So, 776.031 says that Martin, feeling personally menaced, has a right to kick Zimmerman's ass in order to get Zimmerman to stop trying to illegally intimidate him into leaving property where he has a right to be.

776.041 says that Zimmerman, by provoking that confrontation, loses his own "stand your ground" rights. He can still use deadly force only if he legitimately believes he will die from the ass-kicking, and has exhausted every means at his disposal to escape the confrontation--including attempts to retreat.

My take:
- The conflict should not have happened, and it's Zimmerman's fault as an overzealous neighborhood watch captain that it did happen.
- In cases like this where a neighborhood watch captain has made a mistake about whether or not someone else is violating the neighborhood's collective private-property rights, "Stand Your Ground" law is defined such that neither party has a duty to retreat.
- By contrast, if Zimmerman's suspicions about Martin had been correct and Martin had been trespassing on private property, Martin's decision to escalate the conflict to violence would have given Zimmerman the right to use deadly force in response.
- Since Zimmerman is enforcing property rights on behalf of others and does not have perfect knowledge of who those others might have invited onto the property, he has no way of knowing prior to using deadly force whether or not he has the right to use such force.
- Zimmerman guessed wrong.
- Zimmerman was in a position of needing to guess because he was trying to enforce property rights for a community so big that he could not reasonably have known who was invited to be on the property and who wasn't.
- If Zimmerman is allowed to use force (lethal or otherwise) in situations where he has to guess, and if he still has immunity even in cases where he guesses wrong and uses lethal force to get himself out of a legal ass-kicking at the hands of the other party, then Florida has a law where the narrow right to use lethal force trumps the broader right to use non-lethal force.
- To me, that's a broken law, and would effectively legalize duels to the death between two people who both have the legal right to access a Common Element of any communally owned property, as long as the winner is willing to assert that be believed the loser was there illegally and that a punch was thrown prior to the fatal gunshot.

All of this is pretty close to the best-case scenario, too. It's possible Zimmerman is simply lying about having been attacked by Martin, and initiated the scuffle and then shot the kid after he fought back. Likewise, it's possible that the public streets in that gated community are still legally public property, in which case Zimmerman had even less right to confront Martin and Martin had even less duty to retreat from Zimmerman's intimidation.

In my opinion it's actually counterproductive to speculate about why Zimmerman thought that Martin was trespassing. Is it worse if Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious because he was black than for some other reason? I don't see how. To me all that matters is that Zimmerman made the accusation incorrectly, killed someone in the ensuing confrontation, and is still claiming self defense. You don't know for sure whether someone is allowed to be on the property, you pick a fight with them about it, and then shoot them for throwing a punch that they probably had a legal right to throw? That's fucked up regardless of why you decided the issue was worth picking a fight over.

I think that even people who think that statute is good law should be able to agree that you shouldn't be able to claim to be protecting private property when it's a Common Element owned by that large of a community association.

...

Anyway, I'm surprised there haven't been more jokes about how Dexter Morgan would handle this situation.
Post Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:52 pm
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