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Welfare and the like. Thoughts?
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11288
Location: ann arbor
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"Real life experience."
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:33 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6309
Location: airstrip one
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icarus502 wrote:
"Real life experience."


Yeah, just like the statistics you post from a government census website are not your own experiences. I'm sure you can comprehend this, you're attending the University of Michigan ffs.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:39 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Location: airstrip one
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I mean seriously, look at you all. Someone says "I know people who exploit welfare". So you say, "yeah, I know people exploiting the system too, but that doesn't matter, you're an idiot for thinking welfare isn't working right".
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:43 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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jakethesnake wrote:
See, once someone brings up real life experience, no one has any useful response other than "that's an anomaly".

Apparently, everything is a statistical anomaly unless it bodes well for your argument.


Well, there are real life experiences that agree with the statistics, and there are ones that are anomalous. I'm not discounting that the outliers exist, I am saying that you must accept them for what they are or provide some sort of reasonable argument against them. I've made the argument that anecdotal evidence itself is not a valid way to analyze the effectiveness of public policy. I'd love to hear a counter-argument to this.

I don't think I'm being a bully here and I've tried to be civil. I think there are legitimate reasons to see the world the way you're saying you do. I'm trying to say that there are flaws in this way of looking at things, they are human flaws and we are all susceptible to them.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:51 am
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6309
Location: airstrip one
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You might as well be saying: The US prison system is fine, sure people escape sometimes, but most people don't. Statistics show that convicted prisoners go to prison, and that's how it was designed, so it's working! Overall, it's a great system (if you ignore all the problems that aren't shown by that statistic)!

And what I'm saying is, how do you know they are outliers unless you observe every single case that is part of the statistic? You don't. Even a social worker is going to have a biased view based on the specific clients they see. Moving to another district would give that person a completely different viewpoint. Just like if you went from one prison to another you would probably see a lot of different things.

What if, instead of throwing milk money at a person, social workers were trained as job recruiters, educators, consultants, counselors..?? Or simply referred people to specialists? What if welfare was like a school-to-work type of program?

Or is that not acceptable discussion here as we only debate things like the statistics on the percentage of illegal immigrants that are on welfare? The fact is, welfare is a prison that most people don't escape. Your statistics aren't helping, and welfare isn't helping itself, so something needs to change.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:10 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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There are statistics about prison escapees and by that metric prisons are doing fine. There's also statistics about recidivism, crimes committed in the prison, ethnicity of prisoners, social class of prisoners, number of guards per prisoner, cost per prisoner, etc.. If we were to judge the prison system's effectiveness anecdotally then we could easily find examples of former convicts who were let out and committed more heinous crimes and come to the conclusion that we should strengthen the punishments to remove them from society for longer and deter more crime. Instead, we analyze it in a more scientific fashion where we look at statistics and psychology and come to conclusions on what to recommend. Of course, we also have a political system that listens not just to experts but to anecdotes and highly biased opinions so we don't necessarily make the right choices.

There are people like that working in the welfare system, Jake. There are programs like that. There are people those programs work for. And, of course, those programs require money. While in those programs people require funds to live off of. Like I said in my first post of the thread, "welfare" does not exist... it is merely a convenient term for the collection of assistance programs offered.

Providing assistance is not easy. Providing effective training is not easy. These programs have to justify themselves and they are politically more difficult to keep going than simple financial assistance. They exist, they fight to survive. They don't benefit from the mischaracterization of the financial programs that are required to keep people housed and fed while they partake in them.

Also, there's something to be said for the general attitude and psychology of Americans. As a people, we value independence and self-fulfillment. This carries over even into people receiving welfare. Many people believe that they have a better chance on their own when given assistance they are free to use than if they are given specifically targeted assistance. The truth is, in order to become free from this they generally need both.

If you're going to talk about reforming welfare then I have to take the view that what we need is to increase spending by at least another quarter to third. We need to provide assistance that tapers down to keep money and living quality constant until one is off the system. We need to get rid of hard limits and replace them with more flexibility.

But, to your point... yes, feel free to propose a schema that solves the problem otherwise. I don't think people will be as likely to catch feelings if you do.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:31 pm
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laurapalmer



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1473
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anomaly wrote:

I didn't say that and you know it.
Pick another word to overuse.


Not with the thread fail pic, but that is exactly what you trotted out in your written post. Give that thing another read. Read like "I'm 30 and want a bacon coated cheese ball, not bacon flavored cheese whiz. Why must I suffer? Crom, why do you torture me so?"
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:47 pm
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laurapalmer



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1473
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jakethesnake wrote:


See, once someone brings up real life experience, no one has any useful response other than "that's an anomaly".

Apparently, everything is a statistical anomaly unless it bodes well for your argument.


I don't know how to say it differently than redball has, but i will be more direct.

Because you can't bring up a small sampling of your experiences and treat them as gospel. By your reasoning, I can say, wait, I have met dozens of people through cradles to crayons, project brotherhood, alice's cupboard, etc. that aren't abusing the system and you would need to agree, yes, I know more people not abusing the system than you know that are abusing it. Therefore, the system isn't being abused. But, that isn't happening is it? Clearly there are some cases on both sides. yet, it isn't a personal story scale where if i come up with three personal examples and you come up with two, you need to agree with me or if you have 6 and i have 5 i go, wait you are right. Instead, my examples and yours make up a small sample size of that larger wash that becomes statistics. Those statistics could be skewed, sure, but they are certainly less apt to be skewed than..."I once knew a guy stories."

I think you have to know this at some level.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:57 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
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Location: DFW, TX
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laurapalmer wrote:
anomaly wrote:

I didn't say that and you know it.
Pick another word to overuse.


Not with the thread fail pic, but that is exactly what you trotted out in your written post. Give that thing another read. Read like "I'm 30 and want a bacon coated cheese ball, not bacon flavored cheese whiz. Why must I suffer? Crom, why do you torture me so?"


I know what I see in my store; you know what you see in your store. We'll never be standing in line together and share the same views on this matter. That was back on page 1. A lot of good points were made, but I feel my opinion hasn't changed. They're just my opinions and we're all on here to discuss and share our various opinions. Don't care how i'm wired. I'm not going on a hatecrime spree and take out all the locals using WIC cards. It ain't that serious

Maybe I take back the "asshole" comment. But, when I'm stuck in line at the grocery store, everyone in front of me is an asshole. Especially those w/ coupons and write checks. I hope I don't offend anyone w/ my stance on coupons and checks. That stance won't change either.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:19 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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I doubt that anyone who holds a deep conviction on this will be swayed by anything said here.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:25 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
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That's amazing. How on earth would someone mistake a burrito for a newborn? Only at Walmart.............
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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Welfare is good. Keeps people fed. They get rowdy when they're hungry. That's bad for business. Dumb substitute for living wages? Bullshit. It costs less and everyone keeps buying stuff. We need people to buy stuff. Its economical. and quite brilliant really. Money goes from the taxpayer to the poor and they give it over to the rich in exchange for macaroni or whatever. Everyones happy. and if they're not happy at least they're not rioting

fucking animals
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:50 pm
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6392
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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This is all just a circle jerk of business, politics and an overinflated USD because of cheap energy, subsidized farming and the fleecing of the middle class. When we can't afford to grow crops with petrochemical fertilizers anymore, ship them around with petroleum powered trucks, refrigerate factory food with coal power, we'll all be eating hyperlocal salads and fighting for pigeon meat.
Post Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:11 pm
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almstprfctstrngr



Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 10
Location: minneapolis
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After reading all the pages to this, I want to say thank you for the people who tried to "stick up" for the welfare recipients and aren't judging people. Let's face it, we live in America and Americans love to judge other people. Yes, we all know someone or have heard from someone who heard from someone that this person is abusing the system. There are a lot of good stats on here but lets put it this way and yes its true:

Im a 21 year old single mom of a 3 year old daughter. I go to college full time, look for work, and of course take care of my child and no, no one in my family helps out. I recieve assistance from welfare which includes FOOD STAMPS, CASH ASSISTANCE, HEALTH INSURANCE AND DAYCARE ASSISTANCE. No I am not ashamed of it, since I do bust my ass off everyday so I can get off of it. Do you know what it feels like to go buy common food like hamburger, milk and maybe a steak (omg im buying expensive shit! gasp) and when you go to pay for it the cashier is extremely nice until they see your EBT card. It's as if a light switches off and you can tell they are thinking you are just filth. You get treated poorly once they see it. To make it better is when I show at the Co-op to buy my daughter her groceries becaue it's all organic food. People flip out, not knowing that my daughter's doctors have diagnosed her with ADHD and bipolar disorder at the age of 2, and yet I refuse to put my daughter on 7 different medications. An organic diet actually gets rid of the ADHD and bipolar symptoms. Hard to believe, but since it has been shown that food dyes in food have been linked to causing ADHD and bipolar in children has been linked to kids with ADHD (watch the medicated child on pbs.org) it makes sense. And if they help me bring the groceries out to my car they almost have a heart attack. Why? Because it looks like I'm driving an expensive ass car. It could pass off as a 90's model Audi. In reality, I spent my savings of $2000 to buy it. Mind you it's actually a piece of shit car with an extreme oil leak and is about to break down any day.

Here's the fun part. I recieve $380 a month in cash to survive. After paying my rent, my heat and my gas bills I am left with $80 a month to buy neccities and to survive. That includes gas to get to and from school, my daughters pull ups, paying to do laundry and cleaning supplies. I'm broke by the middle of the month, if I'm lucky. So I have to find ways to make money like babysitting. I don't go out to eat, I only drive when absolutely needed and my daughter doesnt get shit for her birthday or christmas. Because mommy cant afford it. If her dad actually decides to pay child support one month, that's not extra money in my pocket. Instead, MN deducts that from my cash assistance, so either way I still only get $380 a month. My health insurance is only for my daughter and heaven forbid if I need to go to the doctor I still have to pay for it out of my pocket since I'm "over qaulified" to get it through the state.

Is it easier to get a job? Sure is, and trust me I've been trying. Plus in the state of MN people on welfare either have to have a job and work 25 hours a week, or look for work 30 hours a week. Even when I was working, which is how I got my savings, it's still barely enough to survive. Trying to go to school full time and work between the hours of 8am and 5 pm is a little difficut to do some times. Not to mention the state gets every little piece of me to be able to get these things. My bank statements, bill statements, my title on my car, my paycheck stubs. Anything with my name on it, they have, and they get every month. If they don't recieve those things, my benefits get cut off until they do. If I get a job, all of my benefits get lowered. Either way I still struggle and bust my ass.

The only reason I'm writing this is because there are so many people out there who think people on welfare are sitting on their couches, eating bon bons, watching all my children all day long while smoking pot and drinking. Or they think they fucking the system while they have nice cars, their kids go to nice schools, get great groceries, and yet get welfare. It's so not fair. They do not take a set back and look at how much these people are actually recieving, how much they struggle. They also do not see unless they have been a recipient of it that welfare is basically designed to keep you on welfare. Maybe if you talked to these people, or have been there, you would understand. Then again, it's easier to look down from your pedestal and just mock or hate. Welfare does need some reworking because of the people who do abuse it. But to be able to filter those people out of the system, like drug tests, it would cost the US even more money. Who is going to administer those tests, who is going to screen the tests, where are the tests going to take place, who is paying for the test, who is processing all of the info from the tests. If you see someone abusing the system, all you have to do is call the government offices that deal with welfare and report it. Their cases get reviewed with tooth and comb and they will get caught.
Post Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:12 am
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almstprfctstrngr



Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 10
Location: minneapolis
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jakethesnake wrote:
What if, instead of throwing milk money at a person, social workers were trained as job recruiters, educators, consultants, counselors..?? Or simply referred people to specialists? What if welfare was like a school-to-work type of program?


Visit the state of MN sometime. Welfare in MN is a school-to-work type program. You cannot get benefits unless you are working, or are looking for work, even if you are going to college. They do not just assume you are doing it, you need documentation with print outs of job searching, and get them signed by either your boss or someone who has interviewed you for a job. If you are working, they also need your paycheck stubs. If they do not recieve your proof, you don't get the benefits. You are also assigned a "case worker" who deals stictly with if you get your benefits or not, and an employment worker. The employment worker helps you try to get a job!
Post Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:23 am
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