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Welfare and the like. Thoughts?
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 793
Welfare and the like. Thoughts?  Reply with quote  

Growing up my family was on welfare. Moms fell on hard times. Leaned on other family members and took advantage of welfare. She worked, went to school and raised me pretty much solo. It was a huge help and when she got her shit together she got off it.

That always made me very quick to defend welfare and always took any critisms toward it personally.

Lately though, I have noticed, in my immediate environment, an uncomfortable amount of people fully taking advantage of this system with no intentions to better their situation. Before I was cool with taking that hit. Yes it would upset me for obvious reasons but I'd rather everyone get help than no one.

The talk about responsibility and self accountability brought up in the Occupy thread got me thinking: is it time to move on from this program?

Obviously I know what I encounter is not a direct representation of the country but I'm not really interested in statistics right now. I'm curious what you guys are seeing around you and your thoughts on it as a whole.

Is the program doing more bad than good? Is it getting too cyclical through generations? Or is the good still worth it? Was it ever? Does it just need a good reforming?

Discuss.

(apologies if anyone thinks this convo belongs in the Occupy thread.)
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:59 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6278
Location: airstrip one
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Welfare, in it's current state, is too easy to abuse. For every success story you will find just as many "failed" stories. It's a system that could use an overhaul, but politicians won't touch it for fear of losing the next election cycle, or missing some big contribution because they caused some beneficiary too much grief.

My wife lived on it for a few years. She had to, her mother was a nurse that had a severe crippling injury. Her father left, and the mother and daughter were left with no other way. It's shitty. She knows what a welfare Christmas is like. They survived because of it, and I don't know if there was really any other way they could have. It's not like a 4 year old can get a job. Welfare is the reason we don't have a crazy amount of people dying in our country due to malnutrition every year, because the poverty level is certainly high enough to where it could happen. Welfare saves some people. I have received assistance before, it's impossible for us to have known we would end up with twins. Who could know that? (that's not true, I knew the whole time but I can tell that story and no one believes it ;)) We needed assistance paying for our food. I'm not ashamed to admit it. At a time when the banks were failing, unemployment rate was crazy, no one was hiring, my company laid off 15% of the workforce, we simply had no other choice with 5 mouths to feed. I was lucky to have the job I had. What other options did we have? Abortion? I've thought about it. I think that even maybe some people would answer "yes" to that question, and that's their right to believe that.

Everyone gets in a tough spot at some point in their life and it's nice to have certain lifeline's available to everyone in dire straights if you truly believe that everyone deserves the same equal chance at life.

P.S. The fucking welfare workers we dealt with were assholes. Every time we went they would chastise the shit out of us for getting like $100 a month in formula. As if me working 60 hours a week with my wife raising 3 kids full time and babysitting 4 days a week on the side wasn't trying hard enough. But that's really the issue. They probably see people all the time that don't ever have a job and just live off the system.


Last edited by jakethesnake on Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:02 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11287
Location: ann arbor
 Reply with quote  

LOL. Certainly provides context to the Occupy thread.
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:03 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Location: ann arbor
 Reply with quote  

HAY GUYS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WELFARE CHEATS AND PLUTOCRAXY IS AOK.
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:05 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6278
Location: airstrip one
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I suppose one could even consider my situation part of the failure of the welfare system. I guess from an evolutionary standpoint, in a survival of the fittest sort of way, everyone could be left to their own. I think we would have made it, but it certainly wouldn't have been enjoyable or probably even healthy. You can buy a lot of ramen noodles with very little jing.

I'd like to think we could get to the point as a civilization where basic needs could be met for everyone. I sure as fuck can't afford to pay for it though, obviously. :(
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:09 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 793
 Reply with quote  

icarus502 wrote:
HAY GUYS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WELFARE CHEATS AND PLUTOCRAXY IS AOK.


C'mon, rummy. Yer reaching.

I felt the Occupy thread ran it's course. Let's get focused!
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:06 pm
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anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2540
Location: DFW, TX
 Reply with quote  

Growing up without my worthless father (or his financial help) and my mom supporting my brother and I, we recieved foodstamps and I got free lunches at school. We grew up without most everything, but mom busted her ass and put herself through dental assistant school to better our lives. When she graduated, she got a good job and we were no longer on welfare or free lunches. She contacted them and took us off the program.

Because of the fact that we wouldn't have survived without the goverment help, I believe there's no shame in having help in your time of need; after all, when you have a job, you're paying into that. But, there is something wrong w/ staying on it and relying on it. Something needs to be done about fixing that w/ the welfare process.

Now that I'm a 30+ year old working adult and sometimes struggling myself, nothing annoys the shit out of me more than going to get groceries and I see someone in front of me in line who has 2 carts full of the good shit. Good shit that I can't afford.......and they whip out that Lone Star card to buy their groceries. I'm standing there doing math in my head w/ a handful of bare essentials and have even put some things back that I decided against.....and I'm buying this asshole the good shit.

80% of the time, I see that same person in the parking lot loading their groceries into some sort of SUV that's nicer and newer than my car.

I'm like.......


</rant>
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:07 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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I don't really care about welfare abuse to be honest. If the system is abused a little bit, but helps enough people out that need it, then it's worth it.
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:40 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11287
Location: ann arbor
 Reply with quote  

anomaly wrote:
Growing up without my worthless father (or his financial help) and my mom supporting my brother and I, we recieved foodstamps and I got free lunches at school. We grew up without most everything, but mom busted her ass and put herself through dental assistant school to better our lives. When she graduated, she got a good job and we were no longer on welfare or free lunches. She contacted them and took us off the program.

Because of the fact that we wouldn't have survived without the goverment help, I believe there's no shame in having help in your time of need; after all, when you have a job, you're paying into that. But, there is something wrong w/ staying on it and relying on it. Something needs to be done about fixing that w/ the welfare process.

Now that I'm a 30+ year old working adult and sometimes struggling myself, nothing annoys the shit out of me more than going to get groceries and I see someone in front of me in line who has 2 carts full of the good shit. Good shit that I can't afford.......and they whip out that Lone Star card to buy their groceries. I'm standing there doing math in my head w/ a handful of bare essentials and have even put some things back that I decided against.....and I'm buying this asshole the good shit.


"This asshole"
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:05 pm
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JohnSchwan



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 667
Location: Baton Rouge, LA/MA
 Reply with quote  

I've never really given much mind to the abuse, because I'm sure it helps more people than those that cheat the system. Only a few times have I been enraged by it, and it's been by scummy people, the most recent was a guy telling a bunch of my coworkers and I that he can't wait to have his 4th child because he'll be able to quit work and make more money off of welfare than he would working.

Well you'd also have less expenses if you weren't having 4 children to provide for because you wanted to "beat" the system.

Otherwise, I don't have the time to worry about a system being abused if no one wants to suggest ways to make it better from the top down.
Post Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:47 pm
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Dream Inspired



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 2121
Location: genoa
 Reply with quote  

i often have people ask me to give them cash for their foodstamps when i go to the store cuz they know i'm gonna buy food with them and they want to buy some weed.

i see the other side of it too like people are saying. mothers raising their kids and going to school and doing right by it, but i see A LOT more of the other shit.
Post Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:49 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21492
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Icarus,
If you have the time, I'd really like for you to provide more to this discussion and the #Occupy discussion other than offering quick jabs and picture links. Because you can. It's almost like you're egging on fights or fishing around for petty arguments just to let people know that you're frustrated. But man...that's my job! haha. Nah, but...you have a lot of experience with the topics at hand and you're a strong writer. I know it's easy to get frustrated or feel like you're just getting trapped into troll wars that goes nowhere. But if you're posting at all, then, to me, it means you're itching to get some shit off your chest. If nothing else, I'd like to know if there's a blog or a place online where you post you writings.
Post Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:42 am
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1275
Location: Fitchburg, MA
 Reply with quote  

Welfare obviously does more good than the harms caused by abuse. But, I do think it wouldn't hurt to have a investigative unit that looks into potential fraud cases. I know in Massachusetts they really don't have a bureau that does that. It would shut up the people who cry fraud constantly, and also save some money.
Post Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:52 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

Is the welfare system really the place to be looking to save money first though? There's more meaningful corruption to fix in corporate tax loopholes, and defense spending.
Post Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:05 am
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laurapalmer



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1472
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Sage Francis wrote:
Icarus,
If you have the time, I'd really like for you to provide more to this discussion and the #Occupy discussion other than offering quick jabs and picture links. Because you can. It's almost like you're egging on fights or fishing around for petty arguments just to let people know that you're frustrated. But man...that's my job! haha. Nah, but...you have a lot of experience with the topics at hand and you're a strong writer. I know it's easy to get frustrated or feel like you're just getting trapped into troll wars that goes nowhere. But if you're posting at all, then, to me, it means you're itching to get some shit off your chest. If nothing else, I'd like to know if there's a blog or a place online where you post you writings.


I would normally agree, but lotta welfare guilt in here providing a stunning lack of perspective. Seems like quick jabs and picture links is the rightly measured response. For the objectivity we have going on so far, we might as well start a Christianity thread.

21% of all children living in the United States are living in poverty. The number of children living in poverty increased by 33 percent between 2000 and 2009. Isn't that alarming enough? We have passed 1/5 and are working on 1/4. The discussion shouldn't be anywhere around if welfare is ok or not, or if it works, it should be purely around how have we let a system thrive in which so many people are crushed.

Should we move on from welfare, does it work? How are those even questions to have?

Let's be real, Jake's viewpoint is exactly the problem. NH is at 5.3% unemployment. The worst peak in decades was in January through July 1992 in NH. The state poverty level is at 10%. Those are the facts. Jake's situation is actually an anomaly, statistically, in NH. And yet, somehow, his conclusion is that people don't have a job and just live off the system. Just like you, right Jake? If you would have maybe worked more than 60 hours, maybe you wouldn't have been such a fucking burden on the great state of NH. Funnily enough, if you look at the poverty numbers, most people are actually employed. However, due to lack of assets, family support systems, and well paying jobs, they are still in poverty. The sad fact is, people are more like Jake than not, working and not getting by.

Jake isn't a fucking special snowflake. Jake is actually the rule more than the exception, and that is what is so goddamn sad about this. See, Jake be letting emotions cloud reality like a motherfucker. Jake thinks fuck, a perfect storm of shit put him into the situation, and he is working, so how possibly, could the majority of motherfuckers work as hard or HARDER than him and still be fucked. Can't be. Must be that fuckers aren't trying. They don't have a job. Or they have 7 kids by 9 fathers and are a welfare queen. Or they are just scamming the system. That is exactly the bullshit that was dispelled in this fucking thread, is shown statistically to be inaccurate, and is completely and patently false by even the smell test. If,however, you wanted to argue the other side, you could look at the numbers, and argue in fact, that Jake actually IS THE EXCEPTION. Jake had a temporary setback, a short term problem. In fact, most of the problems are not temporary, and in fact, they are a long term problem with no hope for resolution as things are presently constructed.

Yet, somehow, the rugged individualism and self-reliance spouted by the tea party and republicans comes from the states with the worst levels of children in poverty and poverty in general. And somehow some welfare guilt is letting an intelligent group here get caught up in dogma that isn't true.

So, minus the rant, and assuming that I have it wrong and Jake lives in AR and I confused him with someone else, I think my frustration in these threads is that people don't seem to use any data or actual facts and we get into goofy circular arguments or personal anecdotes. We have data, we can look at that and outline the problem, but it takes going into rant or quick jab mode to even catch anyone's attention to move the conversation.

I mean, holy shit, though, it started with "Welfare, in it's current state, is too easy to abuse. For every success story you will find just as many "failed" stories. It's a system that could use an overhaul, but politicians won't touch it for fear of losing the next election cycle, or missing some big contribution because they caused some beneficiary too much grief. " Holy. fucking. shit. That's the conclusion you came too? THAT. Actually, no. Not even close.

But. not to put words in Icarus' mouth, maybe he just wanted to thrown some jabs and drop some hijinks into the thread.
Post Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:22 am
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