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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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Oh so now it's an attempt to raise consciousness? Where is this?

You are doing absolutely nothing other than proving my ENTIRE POINT. You don't even know what this movement is about, NO ONE DOES NOT EVEN THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO REACH. If someone was ready to say "jump" you wouldn't know how high you wanted them to.

"Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153"

Thi$ i$ not an attempt to rai$e con$iou$ne$$. We are all aware of everything that is listed here. It'$ a fucking demand for ca$h. Ransom, so to speak, and we're holding the bridge hostage! Not only fucking that, money is available right now for infrastructure. The one thing Obama HAS DONE AND WE ARE DEMANDING THE SAME FUCKING THING. WE GOT OUR 1 TRILLION FOR INFRASTRUCTURE HOLY FUCK WHO IS LEADING THIS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

STOP BEING CRYBABIES AND GET ON THE SAME PAGE "OH BOO HOO SOMEONE CRITICIZED US OUR FEELINGS ARE HURT WE'RE TAKING OUR BALL AND GOING HOME". Christ almighty in heaven below.

Ah fuck it, I'm not done. Demand that the monetary system of the world be abolished, then demand $1 trillion. How do you forgive all debt, then expect trillions of dollars to materialize for you to spend on roads? This list of demands should be titled "We want our cake but also would like to eat it too".


Last edited by jakethesnake on Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:38 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Las Vegas
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Sage Francis wrote:
The reason I can't get down with this "movement" is because I can't stand a lot of the things the people are demanding of others without showing what they will demand (or have demanded) of themselves.>
What are these things that people are demanding of others?
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:39 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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Theres nothing disorganized about this movement. All goes according to plan. 700 cattle herded off the Brooklyn bridge makes a tasty hamburger. A bunch of people rallying behind buzzwords like 'change'. You'll get your change, no doubt. Occupy Everything and the Tea party wont be able to coexist peacefully in this divided nation. Tensions will continue to grow. shit will blow up

thats the point. Run this shit into the ground. Rebuild. Its gonna happen one way or another.

If that's what you're looking for. cool. I dont see nothing coming out of it but more oppression and bullshit.

bah. I should just stop. anxiety and stress is all i got. Thats not gonna change anytime soon
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:44 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Bicycle wrote:
Theres nothing disorganized about this movement. All goes according to plan. 700 cattle herded off the Brooklyn bridge makes a tasty hamburger. A bunch of people rallying behind buzzwords like 'change'. You'll get your change, no doubt. Occupy Everything and the Tea party wont be able to coexist peacefully in this divided nation. Tensions will continue to grow. shit will blow up

thats the point. Run this shit into the ground. Rebuild. Its gonna happen one way or another.

If that's what you're looking for. cool. I dont see nothing coming out of it but more oppression and bullshit.

bah. I should just stop. anxiety and stress is all i got. Thats not gonna change anytime soon


No, see that's fine. OccupyWallStreet could be shutting Wall Street the fuck down every day. You want to cause chaos, then fucking cause chaos. Blow shit the fuck up, and let it blow up, if that's the goal. If you blow shit up, police run and hide.

That's not what this is about though, at least as far as I can tell. This is about telling the world to abandon debt, then requesting a few tril to fix the roads, and invest in renewable energy, like it ain't no thang. The only problem is, that gets the same treatment as a ransom suspect. The police say, "oh sure we got your 1 tril right here in this briefcase" then they take you off the bridge and lock you up.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:52 pm
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
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jakethesnake wrote:
...

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153"

Thi$ i$ not an attempt to rai$e con$iou$ne$$. We are all aware of everything that is listed here. It'$ a fucking demand for ca$h. Ransom, so to speak, and we're holding the bridge hostage! Not only fucking that, money is available right now for infrastructure. The one thing Obama HAS DONE AND WE ARE DEMANDING THE SAME FUCKING THING. WE GOT OUR 1 TRILLION FOR INFRASTRUCTURE HOLY FUCK WHO IS LEADING THIS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

STOP BEING CRYBABIES AND GET ON THE SAME PAGE "OH BOO HOO SOMEONE CRITICIZED US OUR FEELINGS ARE HURT WE'RE TAKING OUR BALL AND GOING HOME". Christ almighty in heaven below.


That's fine. Martin Luther also made demands for cash at the end of his proclamation, though he wisely decided to edit that part out. That doesn't mean that the flawed movement that he started did not manifest some positivity and some results against the institutions with which he was upset.

It's fine that people don't know what they are upset about. It's okay that they are just upset. It's okay that people are making ridiculous and inconsistent demands. It's okay. That is a place to start.

You said earlier that this protest or whatever you wish to call it can't be effective against Wall Street because, well, most of the transactions take place on line anyway. Well, exactly. Protests in the streets, while romantic, are an even less directly effective tactic then they used to be in effecting change in the world. A place like Wall Street is just a symbol of an institution that has become vastly byzantine and diffuse...to the point where it is, in fact, impossible, for an average citizen who hasn't spent a great deal of their life studying the realities of modern economy, to even understand exactly how it is they are getting fucked over. That, however, does not keep they from realizing they are getting fucked over, does it?

Information is to a great extent freely available, but that information, much of it, is of absolutely no use to the , whatever, proletarian, average citizen, college kid in the street, disenfranchised pensioner, whoever it might be, because it takes a specific education and understanding to make any sense of it.

How can articulate and concrete goals be expected? The average person is necessarily not capable of fully comprehending what is going on in our economy or in any other corner of world affairs, but they are capable of being upset, and their lacking the tools to form an academic understanding like the type valued in forums like this one does not invalidate their indignation. To argue otherwise is in my mind Randian.

The problems are diffuse. Hence dissent must necessarily become more diffuse. In this case it seems to the point of nebulousness, but that is absolutely no reason to marginalize this movement. The beginnings of things are sometimes hard to recognize as such. The North African upheaval this year may well have been the beginning of the end of the effectiveness of that type of protest. The days of thousands of people milling in the streets calling for dictators to abandon their towers are more in the past of humanity than they are in the future. That type of movement, as has been demonstrated over the past 20 or so years, is incredibly easy to suppress. It doesn't even take a loyalist military anymore, just a few pilots or cruise missiles. What's the point? Resistance must adapt. It has to start somewhere.

Some of you cats reek of resignation and the unyielding rigor of death.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:56 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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jakethesnake wrote:
Bicycle wrote:
Theres nothing disorganized about this movement. All goes according to plan. 700 cattle herded off the Brooklyn bridge makes a tasty hamburger. A bunch of people rallying behind buzzwords like 'change'. You'll get your change, no doubt. Occupy Everything and the Tea party wont be able to coexist peacefully in this divided nation. Tensions will continue to grow. shit will blow up

thats the point. Run this shit into the ground. Rebuild. Its gonna happen one way or another.

If that's what you're looking for. cool. I dont see nothing coming out of it but more oppression and bullshit.

bah. I should just stop. anxiety and stress is all i got. Thats not gonna change anytime soon


No, see that's fine. OccupyWallStreet could be shutting Wall Street the fuck down every day. You want to cause chaos, then fucking cause chaos. Blow shit the fuck up, and let it blow up, if that's the goal. If you blow shit up, police run and hide.

That's not what this is about though, at least as far as I can tell. This is about telling the world to abandon debt, then requesting a few tril to fix the roads, and invest in renewable energy, like it ain't no thang. The only problem is, that gets the same treatment as a ransom suspect. The police say, "oh sure we got your 1 tril right here in this briefcase" then they take you off the bridge and lock you up.


Its a progressive thing. the police action is inevitable. People see 700 arrested in a peaceful protest, they get pissed off. Things escalate. Its just stirring the shit pot at this point.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:01 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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Again, all of what you said makes sense, except one thing. This movement says "We want order" but the actions say "We want bedlam". The two things cannot co-exist. You can't start burning things then expect $2 trillion be sent to you. Especially if the thing you are burning is where all the money is.

Do we want Wall Street shut down or do we want Wall Street to send us money? No one knows.

I think what people really want is Wall Street shut down, money to be gone, everyone considered equals and put to work improving the planet. The problem is, the demands are so conflicting that this point will never get across.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:02 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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LO fucking L at you dissecting these demands as having one's cake and eating it to. That's what the fuck you do when you are negotiating. You aim high, unlike the democratic party who start at their goal and then work toward a compromise with an extremely radical right wing side of the argument.
medicineman wrote:
Some of you cats reek of resignation and the unyielding rigor of death.
Pretty much.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:05 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21601
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Tommi,

One very loud example (and admittedly a small one which will help me keep my point focused) is when I saw multiple #OccupyWallStreet people complaining about how Bank of America is going to charge a $5 monthly fee for use of debit cards. Right when that news hit, people were bitching left and right. That is hilarious to me. First, these people use Bank of America and admit to it while they cry about "greedy bankers." You know what? You have an option. You even have local banks and credit unions you SHOULD be using. Second, if Bank of America or any institution like them wants to raise a fee, they have the right to do so. And you have the option to leave them or never associate with them.

Of course, there are also things that we can't effect in such a direct way, like when these banks were "bailed out" in an effort to save an ever collapsing economy. And that's a government thing. Speaking of government, I don't like that people expect more and more of the government, which is how the power of the people continues to diminish. People (en masse!) continue to support shitty companies that do shitty things, which allows these companies to grow and become bedfellows with the government, and people continue to wonder why they feel so powerless and why policies are so fucked up. And they just look elsewhere for answers rather than empowering themselves and working through the proper channels to achieve the change that is desired.

I certainly don't begrudge the act of public protest. France does that shit all the time and I think we need more of it. I can't even believe it took this long. It's good to get people out into the streets so they can hoot and holler more. Maybe they'll figure out how to organize better as they go. Maybe I'll even join them (again) when I feel like they represent something I can back in good conscience. Maybe that's what a lot of people are waiting for. Until then, I'm actually not sure of whether I'm for or against whatever the end-goal of this movement is.

I know I could have written this better and I know I could have given better examples, but Daddy has to get back to work.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:05 pm
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tommi teardrop



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I get all that. But the problem is that we don't have that level of control. I bought a house in September of 09. My mortgage was through some smaller mortgage company. Within one month, BofA buys my mortgage and now they are banking on my interest and getting my $15.00 per month service fee everytime I pay buy phone. Yeah I chose to agree to a loan that can be sold, but the point is that if I ever want to be able to build equity or a retirement fund, I am all but obligated to make one of these companies money while I do it. It's just an example of how encompassing the banking system is.

And as far as the supporting shitty companies, yeah. We are in a situation now where people are so hard up that if it means buying sweatshop clothes to save money or buying McD's cuz it means we can feed our family for $10, then we are doing that. Surviving takes precedent over fighting the power most days.

And I think most of us can agree that the state that we are in is largely due to the present economic system and banking institutions that go unchecked by both parties.

To me, that is the great thing about this. It's a "throw a rock and you'll hit a guilty party" sort of thing. These are problems that are so deep that expecting people to have a concise list of demands immediately upon organizing is just ridiculous. Like medicine man said, "The problems are diffuse. Hence dissent must necessarily become more diffuse." I believe they did state their demand though, "a presidential commission to separate money from politics."

I can get behind that

I just think it sucks that people are looking in on this thing to see if it is something they can get behind rather than trying to mold it as they see fit. I feel like we've been waiting for a long time for something like this to get going after we lost it in the condemnation of Ralph Nader by the left.

And now it's here and it's getting Ralph Nader'd by the very people that should be at least tacitly supporting it.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:28 pm
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IAmNiki



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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That list of demands demonstrates the lack of a central message, and that's not going to get more people out to support the "movement."

Also, someone isn't automatically apathetic, pessimistic, or a defeatist just because they see problems in the current way of doing things and say as much. It's like saying you like someone's song because you like them as an over-all artist or support their message and you don't want to hurt their feelings. I'm sure that the people on here that aren't instantly riding the rally train agree with the idea that Wallstreet needs major changes, and they needed to happen yesterday. But if you have a problem with people pointing out the flaws they see in the "movement," then how the hell do you expect to reach the moderates or ANYONE that isn't already a member of the choir? Isn't that the whole point? To bring more people out and make it something that the government can not ignore? Having a laundry list of idealistic "demands" isn't a good way to bring in people that have a more realistic eye on how change actually works, especially when they are scattered all over the place as far as topic of conversation. I don't really know how healthcare and equality has any place in the talks of Wallstreet reform that haven't even begun yet...
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:36 pm
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Sage Francis
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This is what I can't get down with, man. It's the whole lack of accountability thing empowered by a sense of entitlement.

tommi teardrop wrote:
But the problem is that we don't have that level of control. I bought a house in September of 09. My mortgage was through some smaller mortgage company. Within one month, BofA buys my mortgage and now they are banking on my interest and getting my $15.00 per month service fee everytime I pay by phone.


We don't have that level of control? Here you are complaining about paying $15 every time you pay by phone. Don't pay by phone.

tommi teardrop wrote:
Yeah I chose to agree to a loan that can be sold


And there's the kicker...you agreed to a loan that can be sold. You have to accept accountability for that. You can say it sucks and all, but don't state this suckiness in a way that rid's you of responsibility somehow. You fucked up.

tommi teardrop wrote:
if I ever want to be able to build equity or a retirement fund, I am all but obligated to make one of these companies money while I do it.


Yes, you are all BUT obligated. But you aren't obligated. My mortgage is through a credit union. I don't LOVE this credit union, but I love not supporting BofA. If you want to play the game, and that's what you're doing by talking about building equity and channeling earned wages into a retirement fund, than you have to figure out how to do it in a way that is best for you. If you absolutely despise the companies that you feel obligated to work with, then don't play the game. OR seek a better option that is comfortable for you. This certainly isn't my field of expertise, but I'm sure there are others out there who can explain this.

tommi teardrop wrote:
And as far as the supporting shitty companies, yeah. We are in a situation now where people are so hard up that if it means buying sweatshop clothes to save money or buying McD's cuz it means we can feed our family for $10, then we are doing that.


That's how you see it. I see it as people not wanting to be held accountable for what happens when they choose the cheapest option. What we do matters. You think people in general are buying McDonald's and going to Wal-Mart because that's the only way they're able to eat or keep food on their table? More often than not, I've noticed that people are simply consumer crazy. They like the cheap stuff and they buy a lot of it. No sense of consequence at all.


tommi teardrop wrote:
Surviving takes precedent over fighting the power most days.


It's really that desperate of a situation, eh? People are in long bread lines, selling off their X-Boxes and canceling their subscription to HBO. Thank God for all these college kids who have taken this battle to Wall Street so they can represent the voice of the bread line people who don't have time to do anything else but survive.

tommi teardrop wrote:
And I think most of us can agree that the state that we are in is largely due to the present economic system and banking institutions that go unchecked by both parties.


Agreed. But let's not spare blame on all the people who bought more than they could afford and then claimed naivety after the fact.

This is Generation Entitlement. Your own lack of accountability is a problem for me. And I think you represent a lot of the people who are hanging out on Wall Street expecting something to be done just because they want it so bad. I mean...they really REALLY want it. SO...WON'T SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ALREADY I MEAN JEEEEEEZ?!?!?!
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:52 pm
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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I honestly think Ron Paul made that exact same speech the other day.

You totally ignore that many people that are attempting to get home loans cannot do so without agreeing to a FHA loan that can be sold. And while we have the choice to just never buy a house if we do not want that type of loan, we are being punished for our lack of capital and credit score, and in the end are effectively buying a house (by renting) for a landlord, thus concentrating the wealth even more.

And I don't care about the $15, it's just an example. What people have a problem with is that these fees and new additional bullshit are done in order to gain them capital after they have already been given capital by the government (the people) and were never held accountable for any of that money.

As far as consumerism, I think we are looking at a different public. Yes there are consumer crazy people, but there are people that are extremely poor. And there are those that lost their houses, that lost their retirement. I know your inner republican is thinking, "Well they shouldn't have ever bought those houses and invested in those stocks." But to call them all naive is completely ignoring the causes of the bubble and the people that benefited from it.

Look, I know that people have blame, but your logic and your entire post is conservative as fuck. Like the masses deserve whatever they get. Why does the government need to regulate anything? People should be smart enough to not buy a harmful product and then the market will work itself out. Stop blaming rich people/banks/government.

I just don't see how out of everything people are complaining about, you are focusing on debit charges and condemning people who agreed to shit mortgages. There are people and companies that knowingly swindled people out of their life savings and homes. And you want to talk about accountability.

It just comes off as very republican in the big scheme of things. Bootstraps. Personal responsibility.

I really don't think people are organizing because of debit charges. And I really don't think that the people that took out the loans are the one's we should be focusing our scorn on.

I think there are deep, deep problems with our economic system and capitalism in general and I would love for some of those things to be talked about and addressed by our government. If it takes a bunch of hipster college kids with debit card complaints to get it done, then I guess I'm on that side.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:55 pm
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


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the one thing about this nebulous dissent that has no clearly defined demands is that it becomes ripe for hijacking.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:13 pm
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tommi teardrop



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IAmNiki wrote:
That list of demands demonstrates the lack of a central message, and that's not going to get more people out to support the "movement."

Also, someone isn't automatically apathetic, pessimistic, or a defeatist just because they see problems in the current way of doing things and say as much. It's like saying you like someone's song because you like them as an over-all artist or support their message and you don't want to hurt their feelings. I'm sure that the people on here that aren't instantly riding the rally train agree with the idea that Wallstreet needs major changes, and they needed to happen yesterday. But if you have a problem with people pointing out the flaws they see in the "movement," then how the hell do you expect to reach the moderates or ANYONE that isn't already a member of the choir? Isn't that the whole point? To bring more people out and make it something that the government can not ignore? Having a laundry list of idealistic "demands" isn't a good way to bring in people that have a more realistic eye on how change actually works, especially when they are scattered all over the place as far as topic of conversation. I don't really know how healthcare and equality has any place in the talks of Wallstreet reform that haven't even begun yet...
Well it's a tough spot to be in. You don't want to have a super specific list of demands because you really just want to rally people around getting government to work for the people rather than corporations and stock confidence. But then you start organizing and people, like here, are saying, "Do they even have any goals?"

So you come up with some really ambitious demands as a starting point of a debate, and then those same people that wanted some goals identified are like, "Oh those demands are totally unrealistic. That will never appeal to moderates. What else do you have?"

I guess that's why some of us are shaking our heads. Of course you are not going to agree with everything, especially the plan of attack. But instead of editorializing on how it could be done, you can actually make it happen by getting involved if you really care enough to.
Post Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:26 pm
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