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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19363
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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For me personally, I do not have much of an issue with my partner sleeping with someone else if they are in a relationship with me--beyond whether it is an issue for them. For instance if they are sleeping with someone else because there is a problem with our relationship, then that's something that needs to be addressed and figured out. But the act in and of itself really holds no importance for me.

But with that said, from my own individual side of a relationship--I enter into a monogamous relationship in part because of the benefits of commitment--to be a part of a sharing of the human experience with an individual, and to be enriched by the time spent in close quarters sharing life with someone else's experience.

Because of that I really have no interest or desire to do something that would violate that commitment. It would be pointless for me, and in the end more destructive than beneficial to my experience. It's just not how I have any interest in living.

Sort of attached to that I don't really have any judgement one way or the other on whatever kind of relationship others wish to have. I do think it's sad/frustrating when people put themselves in situations where they are forced to lie about what they're really about, just to get the connection they are looking for. Conversely I feel for someone who gets into a relationship thinking it's a monogamous one, and places a lot of value in that, only to have it betrayed by an uncommunicative partner.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:11 am
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Dr Sagacious



Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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I've been involved with a married woman, and let me tell you, I cared about more things than shitting, eating, and breathing. Perhaps, personal experience doesn't necessarily make my point stronger, but I know for a fact that I cared about her kids and her well being. I cared about their house, and fixing it up, making sure shit was getting done and the kids were taken care of and going to school on time.

I don't need a sucker-ass old man telling me I'm all about my primal impulses and base survival instincts. Fuck that. Life is not that black and white. Maslow smells like old cheddar anyways - or deadness.

Do I regret hurting her husband, whom was actually a friend of mine? Not as much as I should, I guess. But I do feel bad that she's taken advantage of him and his trust, and she continues to. I'm not absolving myself of responsibility or fault here, but God damn, coloured charts or graphs or fucking pyramids try hard to define life, and they never really will.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:24 am
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ecapataz



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1960
Location: Bonn, Germany
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Dr Sagacious wrote:
I've been involved with a married woman, and let me tell you, I cared about more things than shitting, eating, and breathing. Perhaps, personal experience doesn't necessarily make my point stronger, but I know for a fact that I cared about her kids and her well being. I cared about their house, and fixing it up, making sure shit was getting done and the kids were taken care of and going to school on time.

I don't need a sucker-ass old man telling me I'm all about my primal impulses and base survival instincts. Fuck that. Life is not that black and white. Maslow smells like old cheddar anyways - or deadness.

Do I regret hurting her husband, whom was actually a friend of mine? Not as much as I should, I guess. But I do feel bad that she's taken advantage of him and his trust, and she continues to. I'm not absolving myself of or fault here, but God damn, coloured charts or graphs or fucking pyramids try hard to define life, and they never really will.


I'm with futruistxen on this one.

The fact that she deceived her husband to be with you is an issue. That would prevent me from realizing such a connection. Multiply that by children and there's a whole world of pain and stress I would not want to have a hand in.There's nothing morally I object to in relationships like this but being honest is a must for all parties involved and that's never the case otherwise it wouldn't be labeled "cheating".
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:07 pm
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icarus502
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Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Dr Sagacious wrote:
I've been involved with a married woman, and let me tell you, I cared about more things than shitting, eating, and breathing. Perhaps, personal experience doesn't necessarily make my point stronger, but I know for a fact that I cared about her kids and her well being. I cared about their house, and fixing it up, making sure shit was getting done and the kids were taken care of and going to school on time.

I don't need a sucker-ass old man telling me I'm all about my primal impulses and base survival instincts. Fuck that. Life is not that black and white. Maslow smells like old cheddar anyways - or deadness.

Do I regret hurting her husband, whom was actually a friend of mine? Not as much as I should, I guess. But I do feel bad that she's taken advantage of him and his trust, and she continues to. I'm not absolving myself of responsibility or fault here, but God damn, coloured charts or graphs or fucking pyramids try hard to define life, and they never really will.


I like the Hierarchy of Needs. As someone pointed out, it's showing its wear, but the principle behind it is good. It helps to think about and categorize what matters to whom and why. Others have used the concept smartly in other venues (see: Satter's "Hierarchy of Food Needs"). The I think you vastly misunderstand the point of the HoN, simply because someone else (who probably doesn't understand Maslow) claimed that "cheaters" were at the bottom. I mean, if you think about it, many of the people often regarded as being among history's most "self-actualized," were failures at monogamy. And, even practically speaking, are any of you willing to claim that your successful performance of monogamy makes you categorically better person than MLK or Emma Goldman. I doubt Maslow had a particular stance on monogamy, though William James, one of his favorite subjects is the one who coined the (albeit incorrect) rhyme "Hogamous, higamous / Man is polygamous / Higamous, hogamous / Woman monogamous."

futuristxen wrote:

For me personally, I do not have much of an issue with my partner sleeping with someone else if they are in a relationship with me--beyond whether it is an issue for them. For instance if they are sleeping with someone else because there is a problem with our relationship, then that's something that needs to be addressed and figured out. But the act in and of itself really holds no importance for me.

Word. Obviously, people need to work their shit out in their relationships. That's beside the point of this discussion.

Quote:


But with that said, from my own individual side of a relationship--I enter into a monogamous relationship in part because of the benefits of commitment--to be a part of a sharing of the human experience with an individual, and to be enriched by the time spent in close quarters sharing life with someone else's experience.

I would argue that the benefits of commitment are hardly sexual in nature. One can be completely and totally committed to another without being monogamous (and one can be completely and totally uncommitted while being monogamous). It seems that you've described the benefits of having a close partner (or even a close friend) "to be a part of a sharing of the human experience with an individual, and to be enriched by the time spent in close quarters sharing life with someone else's experience" rather than having made any particular statement with regard to monogamy.

Quote:


Because of that I really have no interest or desire to do something that would violate that commitment. It would be pointless for me, and in the end more destructive than beneficial to my experience.

Truth. People shouldn't violate their commitments, in any of the myriad ways one can do that.



Quote:


Sort of attached to that I don't really have any judgement one way or the other on whatever kind of relationship others wish to have. I do think it's sad/frustrating when people put themselves in situations where they are forced to lie about what they're really about, just to get the connection they are looking for. Conversely I feel for someone who gets into a relationship thinking it's a monogamous one, and places a lot of value in that, only to have it betrayed by an uncommunicative partner.


I just feel like it's hard for most people. The majority of people are unsuccessful at monogamy at its ideal. And the way that monogamy is promoted so heavily within our country, to the point that Monogamism* is the dominant ideology in our society, I have a lot of sympathy for those who fail at it. Failure is damn near predestined while 'success' offers very little in return it doesn't mean that your relationship is strong or good, just that you jumped through the correct hoops that the pope and his capitalist friends put before you. But it's so widespread, and the "cheater" so vilified that I can't help but sympathize and mock the notion that a "commitment" has been "violated." And when a very wealthy, beautiful person is given a national pity party because their partner had the gall to treat their own fucking body and their own fucking mind as if it belonged to their own fucking self, it pisses me off a bit.

* We should be clear that we're hardly talking about "monogamy" as much as were talking about "Monogamism," the ideology that holds that monogamy is morally correct and that its practice should be compulsory throughout society. Monogamy the practice, statistics show, is in bad shape and is truly practiced by very, very few. Monogamism the ideology, though, is in full effect, screaming at us from every newspaper stand in the country.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:08 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Location: ann arbor
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futuristxen wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
A first step to self-actualization is killing the pope in your head.


That reminded me of this, which I read at an impressionable age:



OK. That was cool. What is it?
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:09 pm
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ecapataz



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1960
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ecapataz wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
ecapataz wrote:
It comes from here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

I don't see the polyamorous at the top because intimacy is mitigated without exclusivity.


That's the doctrine of scarcity. That's the capitalists talking. Truncated pyramid mfs.


I've never heard scarcity appropriated in the way you are. Can you provide some material so I can read up on it?


I'd like to read up on this.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:11 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19363
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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icarus502 wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
A first step to self-actualization is killing the pope in your head.


That reminded me of this, which I read at an impressionable age:



OK. That was cool. What is it?


It's from the Lone Wolf and Cub manga. Which the movie is based upon. Which the Wu sampled from a few times. Also a big influence on Frank Miller.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:55 pm
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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
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icarus502 wrote:
and his capitalist friends


Time is scarce. So are uteri. Are we talking about fucking other people or being in relationships with other people here? Like, if your wife meets someone and then wants to have kids with him, is that going to work for you?
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:13 pm
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1045
Location: Halifax, NS
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Yes I'm nitpicking, and I'm sorry for that, but you had me on everything except for

icarus502 wrote:
it doesn't mean that your relationship is strong or good, just that you jumped through the correct hoops that the pope and his capitalist friends put before you.


Don't make my monogamy something that I had to jump through hoops for. You might have to do gymnastics to do it, but don't make it obligatory that I have too. Shocking though it is, and I know how you're loathe in most cases to side with minorities, but some people happen to quite naturally be monogamous.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:49 pm
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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And for the record, I realise that because of the dominance of Monoganism (not your phrase I assume, but I'm glad you introduced me to it) as a philosophy of partnerships, I'm not truly a minority in anything but statistics.
Post Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:51 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11289
Location: ann arbor
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futuristxen wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
A first step to self-actualization is killing the pope in your head.


That reminded me of this, which I read at an impressionable age:



OK. That was cool. What is it?


It's from the Lone Wolf and Cub manga. Which the movie is based upon. Which the Wu sampled from a few times. Also a big influence on Frank Miller.


Thought so, just wanted to be sure. I had a ton of those (the Dark Horse re-issues) years ago but gave them all away. Now I wish I had them for my kids.
Post Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:18 am
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