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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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MCGF



Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Posts: 367
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what, the one that asserted the debt ceiling as an "elaborate charade" to dismantle the country's welfare system? I call bullshit. If the U.S. hadn't raised the debt ceiling, the countries ability to pay its bills would have been put in serious question and interest rates would have skyrocketed.


Quote:

"In April, J.P. Morgan surveyed its clients that are large buyers of Treasury securities to see what their reaction would be to a temporary default resulting from failure to raise the debt limit. It found that foreign buyers would likely demand a 55-basis point increase in interest rates (0.55 percentage points) and that this increase could be permanent.

That is consistent with the experience in 1979 when the Treasury defaulted for two weeks over a debt limit increase delay and technical problems with its computers. It caused a 60-basis point rise in interest rates that lasted for years, according to academic research.

More worrisome to Morganís analysts is the possibility that foreign investors may permanently reduce their Treasury holdings. The analysts note that foreigners had previously been large buyers of securities issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. But they reduced their holdings by 40 percent after these agencies were placed under Treasuryís conservatorship."


http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/the-debt-limit-and-national-security/
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:48 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6311
Location: airstrip one
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I had a long-winded response and accidentally closed the page so here's the abbreviated version.

The slant regarding welfare was a bit extreme, but not unrealistic. Do you think most rich white dudes want to pay for poor people to have babies? No. They want to keep their money and not be taxed. These are the people making the laws and voting on these bills. Does it look to you like many of them are thinking with the interest of the nation in mind? Even if you take everything you hear about the "debt-crisis" at face value, bottom line is, from any perspective, this is a charade to make rich people richer by taking away benefits from poorer.
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:45 pm
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MCGF



Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Posts: 367
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well its true that the deal is shit... all cuts, no revenue... but even that is better than the economic damage that would have been done by a default.
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:13 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1823
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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$14.6 trillion.

It seems the point of no return came & went a long time ago.

Is there really any hope of paying that back?

Evah?



needs moar buckets!

Maybe Apple can buy some debt for you.

Maybe buy the rights to rename New York once and for all.

Stevejobsopolis.
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:33 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1823
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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"Welcome to Chicago; A subsidiary city of BP World Inc."
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:34 pm
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squirtisblow



Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 1587
Location: SFV
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Plum Puddin' wrote:
$14.6 trillion.

It seems the point of no return came & went a long time ago.

Is there really any hope of paying that back?

Evah?



needs moar buckets!

Maybe Apple can buy some debt for you.

Maybe buy the rights to rename New York once and for all.

Stevejobsopolis.


the big apple?

wait don't ban me, guys!
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:37 pm
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mortalthoughts
LAME KID


Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 11616
Location: MI
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wouldnt budget cuts be the way to go? this shit boggles my mind

i heard on the radio this morning that if 1% of our federal spending is cut for 10 years the national debt will be brought to a manageable low

devaluing the $....interest rates going up....inflation......doesnt make sense

even if that 1% number isnt correct all this stuff seems like some bs smoke and mirrors type shit.........
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:39 pm
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Plum Puddin'



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1823
Location: Run Ebola, Run.
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$20.2 billion to air condition the U.S army at war.

For 1 year.

War is hell... i mean hot... but my tent is like a fridge son!
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:56 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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mortalthoughts wrote:
wouldnt budget cuts be the way to go? this shit boggles my mind


Not if you like things like, I don't know, everything you take for granted.


Quote:

i heard on the radio this morning that if 1% of our federal spending is cut for 10 years the national debt will be brought to a manageable low


"Manageable" is an entirely subjective term. Japan has had a debt load near 170% of GDP for two decades and their credit rating (which is what everyone was so worried about here) is just one notch below ours. There is never just one solution to anything in life. Ever. And this debacle that just occurred should have been no one's solution.


Quote:

devaluing the $....interest rates going up....inflation......doesnt make sense


Artificially lowering our debt through inflation wouldn't hurt our credit rating the same way that a default would, but it would 1) take forever and 2) permanently damage investor confidence in the same way that a once-notched credit rating would.


Quote:

even if that 1% number isnt correct all this stuff seems like some bs smoke and mirrors type shit.........


There was certainly a lot of bullshit on the path here. But this is far more serious of an issue than, say, the bank collapse ever was.
Post Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:07 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19363
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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They raise the debt ceiling EVERY time. There was never a doubt they were going to do it again this time. The theatrics were just so Obama could give us shit and call it birthday cake.

There are possible narratives IMO. Either the Democrats are silently complicit with the republican goals and want to look powerless to stop them to try and drum up votes for better numbers in congress--proving that they are really as apolitical as anything, and only care about power(and probably silently agreed with these measures becausee they didn't want to piss off their rich donors going into an election year)

or the Democrats are complete fucking idiots who shouldn't be allowed to run government in the first place.

The Bush tax cuts should not have been extended without forcing hte republicans to raise the debt ceiling. Obama gave up the one bit of leverage he would have on Congress. This shit ain't checkers, Obama! Once he lost that leverage, the Republicans had him completely over a barrell and he honestly would have addressed the country tap dancing in drag if they had made it a condition of the deal.

So for me that's the two choices there in terms of how we can view the democratic party after this.

Idiotic jokes. Or Republicans in sheep's clothing.

Either way, I call shenanigans. And won't get fooled again.

Republicans can run a Bachman/Palin ticket--you still won't find me in the ballot box ticking democratic boxes.

We need to be throwing all of our weight behind getting actual independent voices for the left into office, because as has been demonstrated by the tea party, a small minority if they are loud enough, can hold everyone hostage.
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:02 am
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Charlie Foxtrot



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1379
Location: Rochester, NY
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breakreep wrote:
"Manageable" is an entirely subjective term. Japan has had a debt load near 170% of GDP for two decades and their credit rating (which is what everyone was so worried about here) is just one notch below ours.


I think we should at least be trying to get to a point where we have no debt. Every year we pay interest on debt, money that could go to fund social services. The only time we should take on debt is when an extreme problem arises, like WWII or the 2008 recession.
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:57 am
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Woland



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 156
Location: Finland
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^ That'd be nice, but with how things are now, it would mean the U.S. citizens couldn't spend as much... so there'd be a lot less jobs.


But anyways, why's there a debt ceiling in the first place? The ceiling is from the beginning of 20th century and no other countries have a similar law.
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:05 am
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Asterax



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1883
Location: Maine
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Realizing how grim this entire topic is, but DIA still manages to take a non-negative view...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/08/deficit-reduction
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:56 am
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2008
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN
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futuristxen wrote:
Republicans can run a Bachman/Palin ticket--you still won't find me in the ballot box ticking democratic boxes.

We need to be throwing all of our weight behind getting actual independent voices for the left into office, because as has been demonstrated by the tea party, a small minority if they are loud enough, can hold everyone hostage.


What you're advocating is not how the Tea Party was successful. What you're advocating is how the Tea Party inadvertently helped keep embattled Democrats in office in a number of high-profile elections across the country.

The Tea Party had a political impact this election cycle when and where they backed mainstream Republican candidates in close elections. Those candidates have implacably moved the political consensus to the right in this Congress. By comparison, almost every time the Tea Party backed an outsider against the party's nominee, not only did the outsider lose the election, the Democrat ended up winning the office because the center felt forced to the left.

The specific example you're citing shows that what you're proposing to do in the ballot box will be ineffectual at best, and downright destructive to your own political interests at worst. What you should be doing if you want to have the same substantive effect from the left that the Tea Party Caucus had from the right in this Congress is backing a Democratic representative who will join the Congressional Progressive Caucus. On balance, that group is a lot more on your side than Obama has been.
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:01 am
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tommi teardrop



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 2215
Location: Las Vegas
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I start to wonder if it just boils down to Republicans being better politicians than Democrats. It's like Democrats want to be all courteous. You look back at how Bush was able to do everything that he wanted. And with Obama, they won't let him do anything without getting something they want. They are so much better at negotiations.

It sort of upsets me that all of the 3rd party steam that was building in the early 2000s was killed by democrats that blamed Nader voters for getting Bush reelected. Even here on the forum, voting 3rd party was seen as a vote for the Republicans. The embryos and shambahlas of the world beat us over the head with that shit.

We looked at Bush and a possible McCain as the end of the world and we compromised our ideas in order to get a democrat in office. And then the Republicans still run shit.

The separation between red and blue feels greater than it ever has. I'm sort of at a loss. Maybe it's time to just drop out.
Post Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:15 am
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